Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Certainly.
Nope, Dave, you can't have it both ways.
Sure I can.
You have claimed that it doesn't refer to the prophet.
I did no such thing. I said that the prophet refers to God "has become his salvation."
That doesn't have to have a meaning that is autobiographical to the prophet. It may have meant that, in one way, but now it can be seen in a Christian light as well. The prophet, as an oracle of God, expressed the Truth.
SD
So you have to accept that he is referring to God. So Isaiah is saying that "God has become my salvation" -- which means that this happened at or prior to the time Isaiah wrote the passage.
Idiiomatic, I would gather. Expressing the vast gulf between how divinity acts and how mankind acts. I don't think it is meant to express that God can not decide to become Incarnate, if He chooses.
SD
There goes "faith alone" flying out the window.
Thanks for the quotes.
No offense taken. No, I would not disown her ... ever. But I can't protect her from her choices if she doesn't let me. Same with us and God ... we may choose a path that keeps us from His Kingdom. I'm sure this pains Him, but He did give us free choice.
The point is to look at what "these things" means. By all means, if one reads and puts into play all of the things that were written, then one can be reasonably sure of having the Son and hence Christ.
But to simply consider that he wrote just this one or two sentences and that that is all we need to know "to know" that we have eternal life, is to miss the point.
I am adressing the point that John the apostle seems to think that we can know that we have eternal life, ... something you seem to think is above our pay-grade.
And, as always, the very same class of people are addressed, "you that believe." What does that mean? Does that mean those that profess a belief once, or those that show that their beleif is genuine by persevering?
What does believe mean to you, Dave ?
You're fond of dictionary definitions. Here's one for you ...believeIf one has to endure in anything, it would be belief, for belief is the qualification that scripture puts forth for salvation.
v. be·lieved, be·liev·ing, be·lieves
v. tr.1. To accept as true or real: Do you believe the news stories?v. intr.
2. To credit with veracity: I believe you.
3. To expect or suppose; think: I believe they will arrive shortly.1. To have firm faith, especially religious faith.
2. To have faith, confidence, or trust: I believe in your ability to solve the problem.
3. To have confidence in the truth or value of something: We believe in free speech.
4. To have an opinion; think: They have already left, I believe.
Have you ever considered that one's belief, acted upon by God's grace, produces the qualifications you would add for salvation ?
IOW, those who believe will endure to the end ... or ... those who believe will produce corresponding works.
One of you compatriots (I don't remember which) went through a thorough examination of the salvation of the thief upon the cross ... how the thief's faith (it was all he had) indeed produced a number of corresponding works. His was a good analysis.
However, if this be the case, how could anyone make a declaration of their faith ... and ... have that faith not produce any works ? Why, you would, at the very least, have the very same works that the thief on the cross did!
And, once again, what, besides faith (belief) is there for Christians to endure in ?
It's the only way to make the scriptures harmonize without changing the meanings of words (i.e. believe).
I mean ... look again at John 1:12 ...But, to those that received Him, to them gave He the power to become the sons of God, even to them which believe on His name.What do you think that final phrase means (other than what it clearly says) ?
In the parable that Jesus told in Matthew 25:1-13, there were a total of ten virgins. "ten" is the number (minion) in the Bible which represents a legal congregation. Christians are seen as being "virgins" unto God. The Apostle Paul mentioned that Christians were "virgins" in 2 Corinthians 11:2 as it is written.
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I HAVE ESPOUSED (BETHROTHED) YOU TO ONE HUSBAND (Jesus) that I man present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."
The first stage of biblical marriage is betrothal and the second stage is consummation.
In 2 Corinthians 11:2 Paul spoke to the Christian church at Corinth and told them that they are "betrothed to one husband" (the first stage of the Biblical wedding)that I may present you as a "chaste virgin" to Christ (the second stage of the Biblical wedding). Therefore, Christians are called "virginis to Chirst" and the number "ten" represents a legal congregation. So, "ten virgins" in matthew 25:1-13 represents those Christians who are betrothed to Jesus (have acdepted Him as their personal Lord and Savior) and will go to heaven.
However, in Matthew 25:1-13, we see that of those "ten virgins" (who represent, Christians who are betrothed to Jesus and will go to heaven), five virgins were wise and five virgins were foolish. The foolish virgins cried to the Lord to open the wedding door when they saw that the wise virgins went with the Bridegroom (Jesus) into the wedding room to consummate the marriage. In Matthew 25: 1-2,6,10-11 it is written.
"Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise and five foolish...And at midnight there was a cry made, "Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him"...And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and THEY THAT WERE READY went in with him to the marriage and the door was shut. After ward, came also the other virgins saying, Lord, Lord, open to us."
From this, we can see that those who are crying in Luke 13:25 "Lord, Lord, open to us" are the foolish virgins in Matthew 25:11. The foolish virgins are those who are betrothed to Jesus the Bridegroom by accepting Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior (Romans: 9-10, 2 Corinthians 11:2) and have "eaten and drunk in thy presence and taught in our streets" (Luke 13:26), are wailing and knashing their teeth" in Luke 13:28 and are crying, "Lord, Lord, open to us" in Luke 13:25 and Matthew 25:11.
However, the "few" who go into the "straight gate" and the Narrow way in Matthew 7:14 are those who consummate the wedding in Luke 13:25 and are the wise virgins of Matthew 25:1-13.
The foolish virgins are saved and will be in heaven but lose eternal rewards because they decided to walk the broad way. The foolish virgins failed to separate themselves from the world and didn't overcome the desires of the flesh. Therefore, THE FOOLISH VIRGINS HAVE A SPOTTED WEDDING GARMENT. However, the wise virgins walked the "narrow" way. They didicated their lives to God and became holy unto God by separating themselves from the ways of the world and overcame the desires of the flesh. They were prepared when the wedding came and had a pure and white wedding garment. (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-8).
WHO ARE THE WORKERS OF INIQUITY?
Secondly, those who are not able to go in with the Bridegroom and stand outside crying, "Lord, Lord, open unto us" (Luke 13:25, Matthew 25:11) whome Jesus "never knew" (Luke 13:27, Matthew 25:12) are described as being "workers of iniquity" (Luke 13:27). In Luke 13:25-27 it is written:
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets, But he shall say, I tell you, I KNOW YOU NOT whence ye are; depart from me, all ye WORKERS OF INIQUITY."
The parallel passage to Luke 13:22-27 is found in Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23. In Matthew 7:22-23 it is written:
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful work? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY".
Many people have interpreted Matthew 7:22-23 in the context of salvation and against the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. However, in this passage, Jesus is not speaking against the manifestations of the Holy Spirit and those whom God uses to manifest His Holy Spirit in mighty and miraculous ways but against those who are "workers of iniquity". therefore, those who are being left behind are carnal Christians who are not the Bride because they practice "iniquity".
How much more clear does this have to be? We are saved not by saying we have faith, but by living it.
By living the faith you can know that you are saved. Not by just one day saying you have faith.
I agree with you here.
If we have faith, ... we will live out that faith.
It would be impossible to do otherwise.
If we are honestly following all of the commandments (and not deluding ourselves about that, I might add) then we can be reasonably sure that we "know" we are saved, if we die at that point.
To think that this is because one day we said "I believe" is incorrect. We can know this if we to the things we are suppsoed to do. And we know this as long as we do do those things.
If we cease to do those things, then our sincerity from day one is in doubt.
It is not the mouthing of the words, or the one-time committment, but the every day journey. Always.
If one has to endure in anything, it would be belief, for belief is the qualification that scripture puts forth for salvation.
That is called begging the question. We saw right above it says "believe and love one another." Not just "believe."
BElief is necessary, yes. And if you want to consider it a foundation stone, a sine qua non of salvation, that is jsut fine. I agree.
But to say that it is everything is simply wrong. Yes, faith leads to our good works, but it is not the same thing.
When I set out to become a world class runner, I can trace my victory in the olympics to the day I set out to first run. But I did not win just because of that one day determination. No, I won because I let that determination flower into action and I stuck with it.
And, once again, what, besides faith (belief) is there for Christians to endure in ?
Following Jesus' example. Day in and day out
SD
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should repent. (Numbers 23:19)
He wasn't (a man) at the time.
That's weak. He was still God at the time.
What do you think that final phrase means (other than what it clearly says) ?
I am not sure. It seem to draw a distinction between those who "Receive Him" and those who "believe on His name."
As for following definitions, it is our contention, as shown in James, that the Bible uses "Faith" or "belief" to mean more than an intellectual acceptance of a proposition. More than a determination to follow God. Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. When one is told he must believe, that also means he must obey God.
And the proof of the faith is in the obedience. And the faith saves us only as much as we obey. We are not saved in one golden moment, but rather we are saved as we journey through a life of obedience.
Perseverence is an issue. It is addressed in the NT. We can't pretend it doesn't apply to us.
SD
23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another
There goes "faith alone" flying out the window.
It is never said that loving one another is a qualification for salvation.
Though, once again, one can certainly see it as a result of salvation.
Yes. Much is a matter of perspective. The Protestant gets all psyched up and says "I am saved" and runs out to show the world the fruits.
The Catholic says "If I show my fruits, then I will be saved."
At the end of the lifetime, the life and the result are the same. Except the Catholic was more aware of the hazards of falling away, and not using the idea of "security" to motivate himself.
SD
He wasn't (a man) at the time.
That's weak. He was still God at the time.
I'm afraid I don't see your point.
The question was as to His humanity.
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