The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[malakhi]

You know our scripture, do you think adulters, fornicators, extortioners, effeminates, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners, will be accepted by God, and given his kingdom?

Yes.

[JHavard]

Or are you one of those who think that small businesses and naturally less corrupt than big businesses?

Robby, I hope you don't think I just feel this way about Catholics, I'd feel the same way about any deviate that takes advantage of their office to misuse people, especially children.

It doesn't seem like most other Churches have the same problem dealing with it that you do though.

JH

[malakhi]

Do you acknowledge as Scripture anything outside of the Pentatuch (sp)?

Yes. The Torah, strictly speaking, is the five books of Moses. But it can also be used generally to refer to the whole Hebrew canon. What Jews recognize as canonical scripture is the same list of books that the Protestants use (which makes sense, since they got it from us). When the canon was "set", they included books which were considered canonical in Judea at the time. One of the criteria was that the books be written in (or predominantly in) Hebrew. This excluded a number of books considered inspired by diaspora Jews. These books passed into the Catholic canon, but not into the Jewish canon.

Jews frequently use the acronym "Tanakh" to refer to the Hebrew scriptures. It reflects the divisions of scripture, which include the Torah, the Prophets (Nevi'im) and the Writings (Ketuvim).

[JHavard]

Yes.

Why?

[malakhi]

Why?

Maybe I misunderstood the intent of your post. You said

You know our scripture, do you think adulters, fornicators, extortioners, effeminates, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners, will be accepted by God, and given his kingdom?

To which my reply is, of course! Isn't that who he came to save? Didn't he come for the sick, not the healthy? Didn't he associate with tax collectors, prostitutes, sinners? What about Matthew, Mary Magdalene, the "good thief"? John 3:16 doesn't just apply to "good people", but to everyone, even the most depraved sinner. Who, after all, is more in need of salvation?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I'm glad you made that clearer, I was fixing to woop you upside your head! :)

BigMack

[JHavard]

To which my reply is, of course! Isn't that who he came to save? Didn't he come for the sick, not the healthy? Didn't he associate with tax collectors, prostitutes, sinners? What about Matthew, Mary Magdalene, the "good thief"? John 3:16 doesn't just apply to "good people", but to everyone, even the most depraved sinner. Who, after all, is more in need of salvation?

If God saves them from their sin, then they will have no sin when they enter into the kingdom, and will have been cleansed.

Again, there will be no sin in God's kingdom.

Rev 21: 8. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

V-27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

JH :-)

[RobbyS]

The Church is a big target and so it gets a lot of attention. Franklin Graham had taken a lot of hits from the press for his views on Islam --which I more or less share--while smaller fry with the same views are ignored. To be sure, there is among priests a "clubiness,"a sense of "specialness" among priests that makes them more tolerant of each other's weaknesses than one finds among Protestant ministers. The postive aspect is a kind of "band of brothers" feeling; the negative is a sense of "us against the world" attitude. Because the church is hierarchialand paternalistic, it is a lot like the military, with bishops and priests serving as the officer corps. Those of us among the "enlisted." --the laity--have mixed feelinsg about our leaders.

[RobbyS]

It probably means someone who has had no more than one wife. But this is irrelevant: most of the early bishops, and we may assume, the majority of their clergy, were married. I suspect, however, that the itinerate preachers--the apostles--probably were not, because like Paul, they had too much work to do and were constantly on the move. John Wesley, a great missionary, is not accounted as a great husband, because he had to neglect his family. After the 4th Century, when monasticism really took hold in the Church, more and more bishops and priests became celibate. This is a matter of custom, but also of the feeling that virginity is a superior state and is the best way of imitating Christ.

[CindyDawg]

Robby it's ok. I wasn't going there, lol. It's just that my preacher thinks this meant a minister could not be divorced and remarried because the first wife would still count. I'm thinking well what if this guy has a calling but had problems before he was saved or maybe he just had a slutty wife that ran off or something.

[RobbyS]

The OT priest system was specifically for administration of the Sacrificial Law, fulfilled in Christ, thereby eliminating the office of priest. Christ Himself is the High Priest, so the office is not eliminated. Christian priests [priest, by the way, is just the English form of presbyter] are ministers of Christ, and unless one first adopts something like a Zwinglian view of the Eucharist, they have the office of serving him by offering, according to the forms of the Last Supper the sacrifice of the New Covenant in which priest and victim are one and the same.

[CindyDawg]

Ok, I got it. Real cute :')

[saradippity]

You post some of the kindest,most thoughtful original pieces on this thread and I truly enjoy and benefit from many of them.

Nonetheless,when you say:But watch how quick they bring back the Latin Mass.and make the priest turn his back on the people again,this is serious stuff and the Church is going to take a strong hand in ridding itself of this horrendous problem. you show a lack of knowledge about "powers and principalities" and the supernatural world.

If you viewed the world and the Triune God from a Catholic perspective you would realize that the influences of Satan and the devil just may account for many of these horrible cases of sexual abuse. And,if this is true and say 25% of these cases were perpetrated by possessed priests then a return to the Latin Mass and deemphasizing the worldly nature or personality of the priest,by turning him around,back to the congregation, would be a first step in reconnecting with our transcendent Triune God.

Catholics are saddened by this scandal and when it all falls out we will probably find a multitude of causes including ordaining homosexual priests and a group of bishops who have lost their faith. But this does not preclude supernatural influences and to intimate,as you did that this attempt to reconnect is silly and nonproductive detracts from your usual (more recent)thoughtful posts.

[saradippity]

Nice post,concise,clear and true.

[ventana]

I did re-read Hebrews. missed that verse though, still waiting for it.

We still have a hierarchy, we have deacons elders overseers, and a High Priest, and an altar, and we still, of course, need someone to distribute that once-offered-always-partaken-of sacrifice Jesus instructed us to continue with.

The only "proof" of your assertion I can extract from this scripture is that they are not explicitly called that here. Given the context here though, writing to the Hebrews, and the continuance of the non-Christian Jewish priesthood, it is likely that he was just trying to be clear and just calls the people to be obedient to (KJV) "those that rule over you"

The ordination of the deaconate, pastors, elders, etc, is not a system of priests. I'm not saying there isn't a directive for ecclesia in the NT

As far as the words you do accept. Well once again you are shifting your standards for I can find no mention of Pastor. However all is not lost for pastor, in Middle English meant Parish Priest. Further Websters defines Priest as Elder or Presbyter

Ecclesia, just means Church or congregation

If all of this is just scrambling to deny the existence of the Eucharist and thereby those who bring it forth, you should not believe that.

v

[ventana]

Back at you, very incitful and well put.

[ventana]

There are several passages in the NT that refer to being able to fall away, and lose your salvation, after having been Christian and having "tasted" the truth.

We disagree I know because of your tradition of OSAS, but I believe when you come to Jesus your past sins only are forgiven at that point. Your continuing struggle against sin is a part of your new life and a function of your role in the body of the Church, "Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God."-Hbr 12:15 

v.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

What is your interpretation of 2 Tim. 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Becky

[ventana]

Becky, I will try to reply later with the contrasting verses. I have to get a lot of work done on multiple projects, so the NES is going to have to get along without me for a little while :-)

v.

[newgeezer]

Of which only a few will see a year of service before becoming one with their owners and the pavement. ;o)

Is that James Dean at the helm?