The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[Invincibly Ignorant]

And thereby attempt to make a point about the validity of sacraments based upon this judgment.

I think this is where many of us are getting confused in this conversation. Most NC's don't believe sacraments "get you to heaven" (for lack of a better term). So your point about whether or not the sacraments remain legit flys right past us. In the end there are sins committed that disqualify a person from the ministry and some that don't.

[SoothingDave]

Is it by accident that you pose your question in rediculous extremes and then insist on a "yes" or "no" answer?

I merely respond to what others are saying. Ipev is making the case that the ongoing habitual sins were ipso facto evidence of a conscious decision to live like that.

I am saying only that he is not the judge of who has faith and who does not.

If you don't agree, and think that it is our job to decide who is a "reprobate" then continue to take his side.

Do you believe that a young man, "Father" Shanley for example, would have no shame and would state publicly that sex with boys was ok? Would claim that the child is the seducer? Do you think such a man would be protected by the RCC for many years?

Nobody is talking specific cases. I am talking in general terms as he was. I am not defending any specific person. what I am saying is that habitual sin, even heinous sin, is not ipso facto evidence that a person has no faith. It's a heck of a good indicator but it is not infallible.

SD

[SoothingDave]

I think this is where many of us are getting confused in this conversation. Most NC's don't believe sacraments "get you to heaven" (for lack of a better term). So your point about whether or not the sacraments remain legit flys right past us.

I don't believe it was I who brought the subect up. Some provacateur started asking if a pervert priest could give communion. So don't blame me, though I do understand that it is not a relevant point for most of you.

The entire subject was brought up just to try to shame us. Even though, as you know, I have granted moral superiority to all of you guys.

In the end there are sins committed that disqualify a person from the ministry and some that don't.

Yes, from ministry. No, from the priesthood. That is, a priest can be removed from service, but he can not "unbecome" a priest. Can you become "unbaptised"?

SD

[CindyDawg]

Hey Mack, did you see SDs post about wanting your list of baptist churches in his area. He's mentioned 4 times that he's thinking about switching. Maybe we should call his bluff and take him seriously? :')

[OLD REGGIE]

The point is that we do not know for sure if such a man is repentent or not. We can not judge him. We can say, it sure as hell looks like he's damned, but we can not say for sure.

"Father Porter? "Father" Shanley?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

All of ipev's arguments rest upon being sure in this knowledge. That is not our call to make

Your right. No, one but the person can know, and yes I for one, commit some sins over and over:( Don't you?

As hard as it is to admit and understand in human terms, I believe that a priest who commits these crimes over and over, could also be truly repentent, only God would know. The earthly consequences of that sin would be that once people found out about it the person would/should be treated like the slug that he is, but his eternal judgement is up to God. I have faith that God's judgements are what they should be.

Becky

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Yes, from ministry. No, from the priesthood. That is, a priest can be removed from service, but he can not "unbecome" a priest. Can you become "unbaptised"?

Our definition of priests differs. All believers are part of a "royal priesthood".

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You base it on your own personal interpretation of how sincere you think a person is?

I base it on the repeated actions and phoney repentence of the person. If walks like a duck....

BigMack

[SoothingDave]

No, one but the person can know, and yes I for one, commit some sins over and over:( Don't you?

Yes. For a while I thought I was the only one who did. This is especially brought out, I must note, with the idea of confessing your sins to another person. You find yourself saying the same things, even though you do try to avoid it.

As hard as it is to admit and understand in human terms, I believe that a priest who commits these crimes over and over, could also be truly repentent, only God would know.

I think a huge part of the difficulty here is that ipev is imagining a monster who every day sets out to commit some monstrous crime. I, instead, picture a man who may go through bouts of sin followed by bouts of regret. I like to think that, no matter how evil some men may have acted, and for how long, they would have had sincere moments of regret and repentence.

SD

[CindyDawg]

You have to put Daves posts in context. If you respond to them one at a time it will drive you crazy because he's always thinking and editing :'). If you follow long enough you will see though that he doesn't want these guys around children.

[OLD REGGIE]

Added you to the pray list too, Reggie. Might want to stay off the bike and out of the pond for awhile though :')

The pond is about 18" deep. The bike is a trike with 3 speeds and an electric motor when needed. I don't go into the pond but I still ride my trike. (I must constantly exercise my legs).

Thanks for the offer, but if you had to pray for me after each of my falls, you'd be pretty busy. ;-)

[SoothingDave]

What I agree with is God.

LOL. This guy has taken sola scriptura to heart, and God love 'im he believes it. LOL

SD

[CindyDawg]

see 51033

[al_c]

there would be only a few hundred made.

Of which only a few will see a year of service before becoming one with their owners and the pavement. ;o)

[SoothingDave]

Thanks. This entire conversation has had nothing to do with whether perverts should be around children or doing anythign in active ministry.

It started with the simple idea that no matter what the person has done, a priest is a priest. No man is worthy.

From there it became a discussion of who is the judge of a man's faith and if we can know infallibly from external evidence only.

SD

[CindyDawg]

I was talking about your harley :'). How about just a "please watch over old reggie?"

[OLD REGGIE]

Do you believe that a young man, "Father" Shanley for example, would have no shame and would state publicly that sex with boys was ok? Would claim that the child is the seducer? Do you think such a man would be protected by the RCC for many years?

Answer the question.