Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
I think this is where many of us are getting confused in this conversation. Most NC's don't believe sacraments "get you to heaven" (for lack of a better term). So your point about whether or not the sacraments remain legit flys right past us. In the end there are sins committed that disqualify a person from the ministry and some that don't.
I merely respond to what others are saying. Ipev is making the case that the ongoing habitual sins were ipso facto evidence of a conscious decision to live like that.
I am saying only that he is not the judge of who has faith and who does not.
If you don't agree, and think that it is our job to decide who is a "reprobate" then continue to take his side.
Do you believe that a young man, "Father" Shanley for example, would have no shame and would state publicly that sex with boys was ok? Would claim that the child is the seducer? Do you think such a man would be protected by the RCC for many years?
Nobody is talking specific cases. I am talking in general terms as he was. I am not defending any specific person. what I am saying is that habitual sin, even heinous sin, is not ipso facto evidence that a person has no faith. It's a heck of a good indicator but it is not infallible.
SD
I don't believe it was I who brought the subect up. Some provacateur started asking if a pervert priest could give communion. So don't blame me, though I do understand that it is not a relevant point for most of you.
The entire subject was brought up just to try to shame us. Even though, as you know, I have granted moral superiority to all of you guys.
In the end there are sins committed that disqualify a person from the ministry and some that don't.
Yes, from ministry. No, from the priesthood. That is, a priest can be removed from service, but he can not "unbecome" a priest. Can you become "unbaptised"?
SD
Your right. No, one but the person can know, and yes I for one, commit some sins over and over:( Don't you?
As hard as it is to admit and understand in human terms, I believe that a priest who commits these crimes over and over, could also be truly repentent, only God would know. The earthly consequences of that sin would be that once people found out about it the person would/should be treated like the slug that he is, but his eternal judgement is up to God. I have faith that God's judgements are what they should be.
Becky
Our definition of priests differs. All believers are part of a "royal priesthood".
I base it on the repeated actions and phoney repentence of the person. If walks like a duck....
BigMack
Yes. For a while I thought I was the only one who did. This is especially brought out, I must note, with the idea of confessing your sins to another person. You find yourself saying the same things, even though you do try to avoid it.
As hard as it is to admit and understand in human terms, I believe that a priest who commits these crimes over and over, could also be truly repentent, only God would know.
I think a huge part of the difficulty here is that ipev is imagining a monster who every day sets out to commit some monstrous crime. I, instead, picture a man who may go through bouts of sin followed by bouts of regret. I like to think that, no matter how evil some men may have acted, and for how long, they would have had sincere moments of regret and repentence.
SD
Thanks for the offer, but if you had to pray for me after each of my falls, you'd be pretty busy. ;-)
LOL. This guy has taken sola scriptura to heart, and God love 'im he believes it. LOL
SD
Of which only a few will see a year of service before becoming one with their owners and the pavement. ;o)
It started with the simple idea that no matter what the person has done, a priest is a priest. No man is worthy.
From there it became a discussion of who is the judge of a man's faith and if we can know infallibly from external evidence only.
SD
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