The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[RobbyS]

I don't use such language myself, nor am I required to. If you want to know where Mary figures in the Church, just reflect on the fact that in the mass,in the Holy Liturgy, Mary is mentioned only twice and in passing. Private devotions to the Virgin can be excessive, and to some Catholics devotions to particular visions, such as Fatima, can make up a the greater part of their prayer life. On the other hand, consider the contents of an old prayer book I have, copyright 1942. Of 300 pages of prayers, about twenty are to Our Lady and that includes three hymns. To give you an ida of the flavor of those prayers, consider this moring prayer:

An act of adoration

O great God, the Sovereign Lord of heaven and earth, O prostrate myself before Thee. With all the Angels and Saints, I adore Thee. I acknowledge The to be my Creator and Sovereign Lord, my first beginning and last end. I render to Thee the homage of my being and life. I submit myself to Thy holy will; and I devote myself to Thy divine service, this day and forever. I wish and purpose to gain today all the indulgences which it is possible for me to gain.

I trust you don't find anything especially offensive about this, except perhaps the use of the word "indulgences," which in this case however does not have the meaning you recognize but the broader meaning of "favors granted."

[newgeezer]

if they drop the loathing of Mary

Do you really fail to understand that our refusal to worship (venerate, hyperduliate, whatever) does not constitute "loathing"?

[OLD REGGIE]

That was exactly my point, thank you. Now if our other self-proclaimed experts on Catholicism speak easily-proven falsehoods about it, why are they believed?

Don't continue to make a fool of yourself. You have made many erroneous statements about what Protestants believe. Should we discount all you say?

[SoothingDave]

It isn't hopeless, unless you intend to be God's Mother.

Making you superior to God.

You are willful in your ignorance. Be gone!

SD

[Mr. Lucky]

There's just something about paying $27.00 to watch a guy making $9,000,000.00 per year scratch his balls and spit that just doesn't appeal to most of us anymore.

[biblewonk]

I'm here and words still mean things.

[RobbyS]

Mary is like us in our humanity, but this lowly maid is greater than any of the kings of the earth. She hold the place that Eve should have had.

[SoothingDave]

Do you really fail to understand that our refusal to worship (venerate, hyperduliate, whatever) does not constitute "loathing"?

Explain to me the need y'all have to knock her down. It's sick.

She was chosen among all women for the singular honor of being mother to the man who was God Incarnate.

The need to equate her with yourself is inexplicable. I am confortable with the idea that there will be those greater than I.

SD

[biblewonk]

hyperduliate,

If you want to find all the correct words, find a theusaurus(sp) and look up worship. All the OTHER words apply, just now the W word. Damage control ya know.

[OLD REGGIE]

Demon tfort isn't Official RC dogma. ;-)

Maybe not, but it's the most important book JP II ever read.

[newgeezer]

Yeah. That's baseball in a nutshell.

And [ hockey | football | basketball | soccer ] is so much more civilized... ;O)

[SoothingDave]

That was exactly my point, thank you. Now if our other self-proclaimed experts on Catholicism speak easily-proven falsehoods about it, why are they believed?

Don't continue to make a fool of yourself. You have made many erroneous statements about what Protestants believe. Should we discount all you say?

LOL. Try thinking about it. I don't present myself as expert on Protestantism, cause there's a flavor for everyone out there.

On the other hand, Havoc makes much use of his alleged mastery of Scripture, history and Catholicism. But he fails on the most basic things.

Let me put this in terms you might understand. Anything he says about Catholics is regarded as highly as y'all might regard my opinion of Protestants.

SD

[biblewonk]

Private devotions to the Virgin can be excessive, and to some Catholics devotions to particular visions, such as Fatima, can make up a the greater part of their prayer life.

Most RC's will admit this when faced with the likes of Demontfort and who ever that pope was that we were quoting a while ago. Most RC's are not aware of extreme Marianism. That really doesn't change the fact that, by design, these excesses, read idolatry, are encouraged. Maybe the excess isn't what you would consider idolatry but by some RC definitions of the word, it is impossible to achieve.

[RobbyS]

Have you ever reflected on the significance of the Gospel stories of the passion, where Jesus was betrayed by once of the Twelve and denied by the chief among them, and deserted by the rest. Certainly when he was on the cross and looked to his right and left, he didn't see James and John. How could her trust such people? And you know that the reason this story was told was that treason and denial remained a sad fact of the life of the Church.

[newgeezer]

Explain to me the need y'all have to knock her down. It's sick.

"Knock her down"? You and yours put her on a pedestal of your own making. Then, you have the gall to get all hyperpious when we won't play along. That's what's "sick."

The need to equate her with yourself is inexplicable. I am confortable with the idea that there will be those greater than I.

See? There you go again. It's not about my pride; it's about your blind pride in your bloody "C"hurch.

Open your eyes, man! Get your nose out of the manmade traditions, and READ THE BOOK. It has plenty to say to you in this very situation, if only you would hear.

[OLD REGGIE]

Earlier in Luke we hear that "all generations will call her blessed." Then, according to your interpetation, Jesus contradicts that and says "Nah, forget her, blessed are the believers instead"

Editing the Bible too are you?

"all generations will call her blessed." Spoken by Mary.

Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.Spoken by Jesus.

And the truth is all generations will call her blessed.

And the truth is you,once again, are caught playing fast and loose with the truth.

[SoothingDave]

Knock her down"? You and yours put her on a pedestal of your own making. Then, you have the gall to get all hyperpious when we won't play along. That's what's "sick."

I would state that the perspective makes all the difference here. It is entirely different to tell the pee boy he looks like the King than it is to tell the King he looks like the pee boy.

There you go again. It's not about my pride;

It's all about your pride. The idea that Jesus might care for His mother in a special way is abhorrent, so you use the Bible out of context to make it seem radically egalitarian.

SD

[Mr. Lucky]

There are Bible passages where Jesus makes it very clear that we are not to assign any special veneration/worship/adoration to his mother.

Luke 1:41-43 in my Protestant, King James Bible reads:

...when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? Luke tells us that the Holy Spirit caused Elizabeth, with a loud voice to venerate Mary. If someone wants to argue that the spoken words of Christ should be heard to contradict the spoken words of the Holy Spirit, I think that person has a pretty strong burden of persuasion.

[SoothingDave]

I guess "rather" has no meaning in that sentence.

Don't call me fast and loose. If Jesus says "rather" that means, in plain English, "instead."

That's the literalists interpretation. Jesus says "Instead of my mom, all believers are blessed."

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

It's all about your pride. The idea that Jesus might care for His mother in a special way is abhorrent, so you use the Bible out of context to make it seem radically egalitarian.

Speaking of context. Scripture for perpetual virginity and ascenion please?