The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[malakhi]

You don't think the Psalms were written in Aramaic, do you? It shows that the language of Jesus was Aramaic, so it is not out of the question that some of the first writings about Him would be in the same language.

There were Aramaic translations of the Hebrew scriptures in use at the time, called the Targums.

[malakhi]

Yeah, and knowing software, whoever posts that last post will cause an error, bringing Free Republic down for hours as the internal logic of the entire site will be overflowed.

It will be fun to see, won't it? ;o)

Of course, if John Robinson changes to a 32-bit system, all bets are off.

[Havoc]

Do you guys honestly believe that absolutely everyone has sinned? What about children, the mentally retarded, etc.? Have they sinned?

What about them. Paul was not selective. All have sinned - all. There is only one exception and he's the reason any of us has a chance. What you are doing now is giving ear to the devil - 'if you eat of the fruit you shall not surely die..' Logic games do not get you around this. How many times in the last several hours have you called an Apostle or the Lord to the mat for what they have said now. I'm losing track. You're supposed to be the keeper of their teachings that does not sway from what they taught. Who here do you suppose believes that at this point?

[malakhi]

But like Einstein, I don't believe God plays dice with the universe.

To which I am required to reply, as Neils Bohr is reported to have said, "don't tell God what to do". ;o)

[OLD REGGIE]

Let's see... can we think of anybody who lived prior to Paul writting that down who might fit? Anybody at all?

Other than God? Tell me.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Other than that, not much! Yourself?

Trying to keep Becky from spending all our money. :)

My daughter Jenny asked me to help her start a business, shes a manager at Supercuts, she says if she has to work that hard it should be her own business, we haven't desided on the hair buss (retail) or a mirco business (t-shirt screen printing - hot press) still looking for others, I was in retail for 15 years, its a hard go, I like the gravy nitch buss, she doesn't care what type of business just as long as its hers, got any ideas?

BigMack

[OLD REGGIE]

Let me predict the answer. "Yeah but it never says Mary sinned".

He he.

[Havoc]

The Bishops have the authority to do so but within confines not adhered to by this group. This is not cart blanche and
it is not the organization that would be. That had yet to come. Catholicism did not exist; but, it was coming into being with a group of people who put down those protesting the sin of their ways. Once silenced, the majority began to maneuver politically and became what is now Catholicism.

So no, we do not agree. The contention has been that The form progressed and became something it had not been - Catholicism instead of Christianity. Once it was decided that Donatus could not be allowed to preach against paganizing the church through allowing it's members to believe they could offer to Roman gods and remain clean and christian, every perversion of truth under the sun was fair game. Theodosius baptised the mess with the name "Catholic" and defined heresy as anything that disagreed with majority opinion. Christ could be put to death by these men in other words and was in the guise of
Donatus - for it was Christ's words that were being judged -not those of Donatus. Another simple truism lost on ya'll it would seem.

[malakhi]

Trying to keep Becky from spending all our money. :)

Must be why you are hitting Steven up for "mad" money. ;o)

she doesn't care what type of business just as long as its hers, got any ideas?

Whatever it is, it should be something she really loves doing -- it makes it easier to put the time and effort in if your heart is really in it. I would consider a hair salon more of a service than a retail business, and -- speaking without any great knowledge of the industry -- probably less cyclical than regular retail. People have to get their hair cut, even during a recession. It is also the kind of business where you can make money off the people working for you, rather than just relying upon product sales. So its probably more easily scalable than the typical retail venture.

[newgeezer]

Dave,

Greetings.

Is there a particular reason that, when you're going to reply to someone's post, you aren't clicking that post's "Post Reply" link? It would make following the subthread much easier, in either direction, for those of us who're interested in doing so.

[AlguyA]

"I could not be referring to the transfiguration because if you knew scripture you would realize that scripture says this was a vision - not a visitation. Moses and elias were not there. And it is further puntuated by Christ correcting Peter when he started running on as you have.

Read your scriptures. They say that elias both would and did return. You need not argue it with me - your argument is with the Lord and the Apostles. When they make you a liar or show you uneducated in scripture, I have nothing whatever to do with it.

First, with regard to the Transfiguration, that's pretty much my interpretation as well.

Second, I may well be uneducated with regard to Scripture (I'm still trying to find the Old Testament scripture to which Matthew was referring when he said the Messiah would be born of a Virgin), but I'm not a liar. Perhaps you would be so kind as to point me to the scripture in which Our Lord and the Apostles said that Elijah had returned.

[Havoc]

It may be a habit formed from flashbacks arising from the time that I quoted Christ without the reference included and he called it "near blasphemy". Or he could just be getting old and losing his mind - or lazy to be fair LOL.

[malakhi]

Got an e-mail from a lurker who makes a great point about the belief in the sinless nature of Mary. Consider the following:

And if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her, and she shall be clean." (Leviticus 12:8)

And when the time came for their purification according to the law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord
(as it is written in the law of the Lord, "Every male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord")
and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, "a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons." (Luke 2:22-24)

Note from the verse from Leviticus that one of the doves is a "sin offering", and that it is "for her". Whatever else one might say about Mary, the gospel does record that she did present a sin offering for herself.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Hey Havoc could you tell me briefly what beef the Catholic church had with donatists doctrinally? Thanx.

[conservonator]

I've been told that my new identity is more pugnacious, but anyone who says that is lying. ;o)

LOL! Reminded me of the disclaimer before the "What Do You Know" quiz.

[malakhi]

I'm still trying to find the Old Testament scripture to which Matthew was referring when he said the Messiah would be born of a Virgin

Isaiah 7:14, but from the Septuagint, not the Hebrew. The Hebrew word used in this verse is almah, which means "young woman". The Septuagint interprets this in its translation when it renders almah as parthenos. Many modern English translations rely on the Hebrew original and go with "young woman" instead of "virgin".

[RobbyS]

You are still full of it. that's my line! At least you don't try to trump Gibbon as Havoc does.

[Havoc]

Second, I may well be uneducated with regard to Scripture (I'm still trying to find the Old Testament scripture to which Matthew was referring when he said the Messiah would be born of a Virgin), but I'm not a liar. Perhaps you would be so kind as to point me to the scripture in which Our Lord and the Apostles said that Elijah had returned.

Cake. Here you go:

Matthew 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

[11] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

[12] But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Not only is it prophesied that elias must return first. Not only is it noted by one of the apostles. It is confirmed by Christ who then states Elias had already returned and had been "dealt with" in a fashion that Christ would also suffer. IE, can you find anyone in Scripture that matches this - there is only one person that had to come and make way for Christ. There is but one man who suffered and died at the hands of the Romans to this point. That was John the Baptist. Mark 9:11 - 13 reiterates the above. And then there is Luke:

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

If there is any vaguarity about this, Jesus has cleared that up. So there is no problem with saying Elias returned in the person of John the Baptist and made the way for the ministry of Christ. Once dead, he could no longer return and influence things on earth and as moses was also dead, only a vision of them could appear in the other instance aforementioned.

[biblewonk]

Note from the verse from Leviticus that one of the doves is a "sin offering", and that it is "for her". Whatever else one might say about Mary, the gospel does record that she did present a sin offering for herself.

This is a very good catch but I fear that the Marian will simply point to the Baptism of Jesus as an example of someone not needing a baptism but getting it for a different reason. John's (that guy who is the greatest of men born of women) baptism was one of repentance which the Lord certainly didn't need.

[RobbyS]

Every prayer IS answered, especially when it comes from those in heaven, which boil down to "Let him/her know your will and conform to it."