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The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)
Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.


Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

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TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; michaeldobbs
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To: SoothingDave
Your kid told a lie yet?

BigMack
47,661 posted on 04/21/2003 9:12:22 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: Havoc
They had no more or less authority than they would otherwise have had if they were 1st century apostles.

We finally agree. The bishops are the desecndents of the Apostles. And since the Apostles taught the Good News and wrote Scripture, then bishops have the exact same authority to determine what is orthodox.

Ring the bells! Say alleluia! Dave and Havoc agree.

SD

47,662 posted on 04/21/2003 9:12:43 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: biblewonk
Oops, update:

******* Verses about Immaculate Conception of Mary *****

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

47,663 posted on 04/21/2003 9:12:58 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrissssstian)
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To: AlguyA
My point is having access to the Truth, whether that Truth be the Bible or Church Teaching based on the Bible or whatever, is not sufficient. One must also have the desire to practice that truth. Italy (and we've discussed Ireland, before, and I'm still not convinced it has a significantly low birth rate vis-a-vis other European countries) is a prime example of this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but abortion is legal in Italy, isn't it? Thus, even though Italy is supposed to be a Catholic country fully steeped in the dogmas of the Truth, its apparent said Truth has little impact on society, today.

We are not in disagreement. I believe I misinterpreted your intent concerning the availability of Bibles.

You are right concerning Italy. I believe abortion has been legal for more than 20 years.

Concerning Ireland; I believe I read recently that the birth rate is too low to be self substaning.

POPULATION NEWS A Declining Population — No Joke

Some people in Irish media circles sought to make a joke of the Pope’s address to the Italian Parliament on Italy’s declining birth rate.

However, Irishcommentators seemed unaware that the birth rate in Ireland is now well below replacement level. What we seem unable to grasp is that for the past half dozen years or more, the Irish birth rate has dipped well below the natural replacement level, and remains there.

Twenty years ago we had a birth rate of 21.5 per 1000, but by the year 2002, this had fallen to 14.3 per 1000. The effect of population implosion across Europe and much of the western world is no joke. Already the United Nations demographers are worried.

Those who are pushing the anti-life policies of the contraceptive movement, with claims that the world’s population would soon be too large, are now ready to admit that a declining population in the major economies of the world will create major headaches.

Irish Birth Rate

47,664 posted on 04/21/2003 9:13:14 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE ((I am a cult of one! UNITARJEWMIAN))
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Your kid told a lie yet?

Not exactly that I can think of. She is very good at repeating what you tell her not to do, even as she is doing it.

Like (for crayons) "On the paper. Not in mouth." as she is chewing on one.

SD

47,665 posted on 04/21/2003 9:14:08 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Hey I meant to ping you to #47,597.

I did see it. You addressed the specific detail of the cross vs. a pole or tree. But how do you deal with this issue more generally? The Mediterranean region at the time was awash with beliefs about dying-and-resurrecting gods. What makes Jesus different from these other examples, especially when the general story lines are so similar?

47,666 posted on 04/21/2003 9:14:19 AM PDT by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant; angelo
What do you mean "we" white man. :)

BigMack
47,667 posted on 04/21/2003 9:14:38 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Hey whats up doc?

Took a few days off for the start of Passover. Went to a Resurrection Day brunch yesterday with mrs. malakhi's family. Other than that, not much! Yourself?

47,668 posted on 04/21/2003 9:16:22 AM PDT by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Your kid told a lie yet?

Oh, yes! And with a straight face too!

47,669 posted on 04/21/2003 9:19:28 AM PDT by IMRight (This space available - Refer all requests to 1-888-TAG-LINE - Managed by Malakhi advertising Inc.)
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To: CindyDawg
. Nope. That won't work either caz JH and I figured out that it had to have occurred between dusk and midnight or He would have went into 4 nights and He specifically says 3. :')

Well, you could just avoid the whole confusion and convert to Judaism. ;o)

47,670 posted on 04/21/2003 9:20:48 AM PDT by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: AlguyA
Laws do have an impact on human behavior.

And the law on Prohibition spawned the Kennedy Empire. ;-)

Bad law!

47,671 posted on 04/21/2003 9:21:16 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE ((I am a cult of one! UNITARJEWMIAN))
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To: OLD REGGIE
Thanks for the info on the Irish. As you might expect, I had hoped they would be an exception.
47,672 posted on 04/21/2003 9:21:53 AM PDT by AlguyA (I'm giving up tag lines for Lent.)
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To: SoothingDave; JHavard; newgeezer; Invincibly Ignorant; OLD REGGIE; CindyDawg
Do you guys honestly believe that absolutely everyone has sinned?

What about children, the mentally retarded, etc.? Have they sinned?

Yes!

Rom: 9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

This is one of many many places that would be a good opportunity for the Holy Spirit to exclude Mary if there was any truth to the claim.

47,673 posted on 04/21/2003 9:24:41 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrissssstian)
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To: IMRight
"but she's a girl" is all I get back. I think we've already received more outfits than my son's shared between them.

Which she'll wear once or twice, before she outgrows them. ;o)

I may have to order Prozac in bulk for the women in the family if this keeps up. Sigh.

LOL! You will notice right away that girls are different. Anyone who thinks the differences between boys and girls are simply due to environment has never had children!

47,674 posted on 04/21/2003 9:24:56 AM PDT by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: OLD REGGIE
'And the law on Prohibition spawned the Kennedy Empire. ;-)

Bad law!

Agree on both points. In fact, that was the author's point to whom I alluded earlier. Basically, that while drinking declined, the cost to society of the crime empires spawned by Prohibition far outweighed the benefits of decreased rates of drinking.

47,675 posted on 04/21/2003 9:25:28 AM PDT by AlguyA (I'm giving up tag lines for Lent.)
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To: SoothingDave
You are the only one with faulty logic. The rational world recognizes that one can be saved from error before such error is committed.

Really - So one can go to confession in a Catholic Church, recieve absolution for that which they have yet to do and then go commit murder knowing they will be covered. This is what you are arguing - aside from the obvious blasphemy, it's absurd to say nothing of unscriptural.

If I double check your prescription and find that it would have reacted to an allergy and killed you, I have certainly "saved" you just as much as if I had to perform an emergency procedure to "save" you had you ingested the wrong medicine.

Again, You are arguing a one time for all time fix for her sin and a removal of her free will thus compromising God on his own law - You've accused God of sin. And as soon as you reach that point, what you proffer is immediatly proven false. God cannot sin or violate his own laws regarding our status. That was the reason for Christ's coming - to do it within his laws. If he could merely snap his fingers and preserve anyone from sin, Christ would not be needed. Period, which means God established an intricate plan and acted foolishly and all for naught because it was not needed. In this you set yourself up as wiser and craftier than God - again contravening scripture.

Mary was saved from the pit of sin by never falling in, instead of being lifted out. The effect is the same -- she was saved. But she did not sin, though she would have sinned, had she not been saved first.

The effect is not the same. And your reasoning contravenes not only scripture; but, your own contrived system of pennance, indulgeance, confession, contrition, gobbledy gook. Your falacy prone logic has contravened your own system. For you yourself know that you cannot go to confession and get relief from sin you are going to commit. Nor can we get an advance pass from Christ to go commit murder. Do you proof read these lies before you utter them?

This is so elementary it is a wonder anyone even questions it.

It is so elementary it's a wonder everyone here isn't beating you sensless on this.

47,676 posted on 04/21/2003 9:25:31 AM PDT by Havoc (If you can't be frank all the time are you lying the rest of the time?)
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To: malakhi
What makes Jesus different from these other examples, especially when the general story lines are so similar?

His appearance to 500 people. The testimonies of some of these that survive to this day and are powerful. The astonishing number of hearts that become completely changed by the power of His ultimate atoning sacrifice thru the Ruach Ha Kodesh. (including mine).

47,677 posted on 04/21/2003 9:28:39 AM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: SoothingDave; Havoc
Mary was saved from the pit of sin by never falling in, instead of being lifted out. The effect is the same -- she was saved. But she did not sin, though she would have sinned, had she not been saved first.

This is so elementary it is a wonder anyone even questions it.


Did you fall down the rabbit hole?
47,678 posted on 04/21/2003 9:30:04 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE ((I am a cult of one! UNITARJEWMIAN))
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To: conservonator
BTW Why the name change?

When I joined FR back in '98, I was still Catholic. The screen name I chose -- "angelo" -- was my Catholic confirmation name! When I became a "born again Jew" about three years ago, I still kept the name because I wanted to keep my "freeper born-on date". But as time passed I grew less and less comfortable using a name associated with a religion I no longer practice. I finally stopped procrastinating about a month ago, and petitioned Jim Robinson for a name change, which he graciously granted to me. "malakhi" means the same thing in Hebrew that "angelo" does in Latin; they both mean "messenger". So I was able to preserve continuity in some sense.

I've been told that my new identity is more pugnacious, but anyone who says that is lying. ;o)

47,679 posted on 04/21/2003 9:30:42 AM PDT by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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To: AlguyA
I assume you are referring to the Tranfiguration. Of course, such evidence to support your contention would seem problematic. First, because both Elijah and Moses appeared at the Transfiguration -and the evidence clearly seems to indicate Moses died but returned- and second because you have no scripture indicating Elijah dies AFTER the Transfiguration.

I could not be referring to the transfiguration because if you knew scripture you would realize that scripture says this was a vision - not a visitation. Moses and elias were not there. And it is further puntuated by Christ correcting Peter when he started running on as you have.

Read your scriptures. They say that elias both would and did return. You need not argue it with me - your argument is with the Lord and the Apostles. When they make you a liar or show you uneducated in scripture, I have nothing whatever to do with it.

47,680 posted on 04/21/2003 9:33:49 AM PDT by Havoc (If you can't be frank all the time are you lying the rest of the time?)
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