Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
That's funny since Christ Himself never did nor would tolerate it.
No I'm saying the Holy Spirit would figure people were astute enough to know that Mary, the of Jesus would be referred to always as such.
SD
You can't have it all ways.
You can't have it all ways.
Doctrine is pure and unadulterated. Discipline is lacking. Our Church is a Church for sinners, not perfect people.
SD
There are quite a few warnings about the traditions of men in the bible aren't there.
If it helps any, consider the Catholic notion of actual righteousness, as opposed to the Protestant notion of "assumed" righteousness.
To the Catholic the righteousness which is counted toward the person is an actual one made possible through the grace of Christ. Christ's perfection does not become a substitute for my own, but becomes the impetus behind my own real perfection.
This is then judged and my perfection is seen as good.
Those who do not follow Christ end up as wicked as they began. So truly:
the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
SD
Actually, Judaism doesn't teach that the sacrifices, of themselves, were efficacious. Rather, they were symbolic, an external sign of repentance. We see what the later prophets had to say about those who "went through the motions" but whose hearts had not repented of their sin.
Yes ... it is clear that repentance was necessary, ... along with sacrifice, for the forgiveness of sins.Leviticus 4:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:
3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.
4 And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD.
5 And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock's blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:
6 And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD, before the vail of the sanctuary.
7 And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Leviticus 4:13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty;
14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.
15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands upon the head of the bullock before the LORD: and the bullock shall be killed before the LORD.
16 And the priest that is anointed shall bring of the bullock's blood to the tabernacle of the congregation:
17 And the priest shall dip his finger in some of the blood, and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD, even before the vail.
18 And he shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar which is before the LORD, that is in the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall pour out all the blood at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
19 And he shall take all his fat from him, and burn it upon the altar.
20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
21 And he shall carry forth the bullock without the camp, and burn him as he burned the first bullock: it is a sin offering for the congregation.
22 When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty;
23 Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish:
24 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD: it is a sin offering.
25 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering.
26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;
28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.
30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.
31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.
32 And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.
33 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.
34 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar:
35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
Leviticus 5:5 And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing:
6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.
7 And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the LORD; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering.
8 And he shall bring them unto the priest, who shall offer that which is for the sin offering first, and wring off his head from his neck, but shall not divide it asunder:
9 And he shall sprinkle of the blood of the sin offering upon the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be wrung out at the bottom of the altar: it is a sin offering.
10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.
11 But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering.
12 Then shall he bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it, even a memorial thereof, and burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: it is a sin offering.
13 And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.
14 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
15 If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering:
16 And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.
17 And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.
18 And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.
19 It is a trespass offering: he hath certainly trespassed against the LORD.
Leviticus 6:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour;
3 Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein:
4 Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty, that he shall restore that which he took violently away, or the thing which he hath deceitfully gotten, or that which was delivered him to keep, or the lost thing which he found,
5 Or all that about which he hath sworn falsely; he shall even restore it in the principal, and shall add the fifth part more thereto, and give it unto him to whom it appertaineth, in the day of his trespass offering.
6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest:
7 And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Imagine, if you will, the father of the prodigal son sending someone out to seek the son. When he finds him, he tells him that his Father loves him and wants him to come home.
Rather, ... imagine, if you will, the father of the prodigal son sending a servant out to seek his son. When the servant finds his master's son, he is horrified to discover that the son has been convicted of theft (after all, he stole from the swine-herder to feed himself) and that the sentence for this act (the third in a three strikes/you're out sequence) is death. Further, as he attempts to negotiate a reduced sentence with the son's jailers, the jailers recount to the servant that this man, for whom he is expending so much effort, ... is just not worth the trouble. They know that he callously requested and took his portion of his inheritance from his father (for which his father had worked for a lifetime) ... only to quickly squander it on fast living and loose women. The servant is confused ... for he knows that what they say is true ... so he is unsure about what to do next. He returns to his master.
Upon returning to his master, he recounts all that he has seen and heard regarding the master's son's predicament. He asks the master what he wants him to do.
The master tells his servant to rest ... that he has done what he could ... and that, he, the master, will tend to this situation himself from this point on.
So, ... the master quickly prepares himself and sets out for the place where his son has been imprisoned. When he comes to the place, he is informed of his son's plight and, subsequently, escorted to where he may visit with his son. When he sees his son, he is shocked.
His once regal son has disgraced himself ... he is no longer even recognizable to the father ... until he looks into his son's eyes. There he sees it ... a glimmer ... a trace of his own heritage holding forth in his doomed son. Though the father is aware of his son's crimes ... though he knows, personally, of his son's callousness ... as he looks upon him ... he loves him.
For this is his son ... his ... little boy.
He determines what he will do. He goes to the jailers and informs them that he will negotiate for his son's release. The jailers laugh at him and say that such is impossible, for his are capital crimes ... the statutes call for death ... they will soon be fitting the rope about his neck.
The father bows his head and tells the jailers that he is willing to take his son's place. The jailers are appalled and incredulous ... surely he can't be serious. Just from their brief conversation ... they can see ... that this is a righteous man. For him to take the place and punishment of a heinous criminal sentenced to death is unthinkable. They attempt to dissuade him, but it is no use ... his mind is made up.
The jailers take up the issue with the warden. The warden pores through his volumes of prison policy and procedure, only to find ... that there is nothing that would prevent such an exchange from occurring. He sends the jailers back to carry out the exchange, provided the inmate's father is still willing. The jailers find that this is so ... and so ... they make the exchange. The father now sits imprisoned, silently waiting for death. His wayward son, obviously moved by his father's gesture, ... weeps furiously and pledges, to his father, that he will spend the remainder of his life in such a way as to ever cherish his father's sacrifice, ... and in such a way as would make his father proud.
Such was JESUS' sacrifice for us. He, Himself, said ...Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
You can’t use scripture to make a point, so now your telling me what the Holy Spirit was thinking? Lol
Enough of this nonsense, the first hurtle you have to get over if you intend to give your belief any serious weight by us NC’s, is to show us another family who would have been among the close followers of Christ, (possibly less then 200 of them near the cross), who had a mother named Mary, who’s husband was a carpenter, and a Son named Jesus who had at least two brothers named James and Joses.
Statistician may tell us that in the Jerusalem area at the time of Christ, their may have been hundreds of men named Jesus, and fifty of them with a father named Joseph, and 10 with a mother named Mary, and one or two percent with a next to the oldest brother named James, and, and, on and on.
But what happens to those odds, when you realize this combination of names have to come from a group of under a thousand people (very liberal figure) who would have been close enough to Jesus to be at the cross, and to be mentioned in scripture?
If you can’t, …then a person would have to be foolish, to think that when the scripture mentions a woman by the name of Mary, who had sons named James and Joses, that it was referring to anyone other then the family of Jesus.
You can claim we’re too literal, and too wrapped up in scripture, but then we can make the opposite claim about you.
All I want Catholics to admit is that if people only follow the scripture for all there doctrines and beliefs, then you can understand why we believe as we do.
And I am willing to admit that if my belief came from a Church that had been building on man made traditions for at least a thousand years, then I would probably believe the same thing.
JH :-)
But weren't those only for the Jews? God surly knew we'd never do the same thing, since we could read what Jesus thought about the Jews and their traditions in the scripture? But then again, I could be wrong. Lol
JH :-)
It's like you've been staring at it too long. That "family" is right in front of your face. When Mary is named and the brothers of Jesus are named, that Mary is Mary, the mother of Jesus.
When the other Mary, the mother of James and Joses is mentioned it is a different Mary. It is right in front of your face. The Holy Spirit did not refer to the mother of Jesus as "the mother of James and Joses" nor did He refer to her as "the other Mary."
All I want Catholics to admit is that if people only follow the scripture for all there doctrines and beliefs, then you can understand why we believe as we do.
I have no problem with this. I'm not sure why you would think I would. Yes, the many misconceptions y'all have is exactly a result of not following the guide God left for us to help us understand Scripture.
SD
I'm still very partial to the Hebrews verses about Melchizdec(sp) which blows away the whole Mother of God title.
I'm rather partial to the Perpetual Virgin Mary replacing the Perpeptual Virgin Diana of the Ephesians Goddess. To the point when they announced that Mary was the Mother of God in the 400's they went to Ephesus to do it. :-)
No way!
Okay……….
When the other Mary, the mother of James and Joses is mentioned it is a different Mary. It is right in front of your face. The Holy Spirit did not refer to the mother of Jesus as "the mother of James and Joses" nor did He refer to her as "the other Mary."
Is it possible that the Holy Spirit did not see Mary as someone to be venerated, and as just another blessed Jewish mother?
God’s Spirit isn’t concerned with protocol and positions of authority like men. When the Spirit zeroed in on one person, all others became secondary.
It was Barnabas and Saul, until Paul became the minister to the people, then it was Paul and Barnabas.
It was Mary, the mother of Jesus, until what had made her special died. Then the first woman mentioned was Mary Magdalene, and it was her that Christ appeared to first. Everything was about Peter until Paul came on the scene, then it was all about him.
It didn't mean God suddenly liked one over the other, it's just that their purpose had been fulfilled, and it was time to move onto the next phase.
Names are always listed in the order of age or of the importance to the writing. Peter over Andrew, James over Joses, James over John, and etc. The writers with God’s Spirit had no emotions ruling them, and everything written was sterile and, matter of fact.
JH :-)
Yes way. Here's a brief testimonial.
As the center of world Christianity shifted from Ephesus to Rome, Mary began to be exalted, worshipped, and prayed to as a mediator to God. It is not surprising, then, that the Roman Catholic Church would choose Ephesus as the place to convene an ecumenical council in 431 in order to declare officially that Mary is the "Mother of God." This began a steady increase of Mary worship through the centuries and lasting until today. According to the August 1997 Newsweek cover story, for example, over 4 million petitions have been received by the Vatican to declare Mary co-redemptrix with Jesus. If this becomes dogma, all Catholic prayers to Jesus will be expected to go first to Mary. Pope John Paul II is a declared worshipper of Mary and he bows before her and prays to her as a mediator. Her idols have proliferated more around the world than Diana's ever had.
Mary is a skillful adaptive deception of the Queen of Heaven. Since Diana became worthless after the spiritual warfare of Paul and John, the Queen of Heaven needed another disguise. When I suggested this to Hector Torres after returning from Turkey, he said, "Of course. Don't you realize how many pictures and idols of the Virgin Mary in Latin America have her connected to the crescent moon, the symbol of the moon goddess?" This was news to me, but as soon as I looked, there it was! In fact, one of the frequent titles given by Catholics to Mary is "Queen of Heaven."
Doris and I were horrified when, in 1996, we visited Rome for the first time and took a guided tour of the Vatican. We had not been inside the building for more than 10 minutes when we were startled to see a life-sized statue of Diana of the Ephesians on public display.
C. Peter Wagner, Coordinator, International Spiritual Warfare Network
THE FIRST COUNCIL OF NICE
A.D. 325
Emperor. — CONSTANTINE.
Pope. — SILVESTER.
Elenchus.
Historical Introduction.
The Creed and the Creed of Eusebius of Caesarea.
Excursus on the word gennhqe>nta ouj poihqenta.
Excursus on the words gennhqe>hqe>nta ouj poihqenta
The XX. Canons, with the Ancient Epitome and Notes.
Excursus to C.j, On the use of the word Canon.
Excursus to C.v, On the word provfe>rein.
Excursus to C. vj, On the Extent of Rome’s Jurisdiction over Suburban Churches.
Excursus to C. vij, On the Rise of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.
Excursus to C. viij, On the Chorepiscopi.
Excursus to C. xj, On the Public Discipline.
Excursus to C. xiij, On the Communion of the Sick.
Excursus to C. xv, On the Translation of Bishops.
Excursus to C. xvij, On Usury.
Excursus to C. xix, On Deaconesses.
Excursus on the Number of the Nicene Canons, with the Contents of the spurious Arabic Canons.
Proposed Action on Clerical Celibacy.
The Synodal Letter with the Decree on the Keeping of Easter.The differences in the way of fixing the period of Easter did not indeed
disappear after the Council of Nicea. Alexandria and Rome could not agree,
either because one of the two Churches neglected to make the calculation
for Easter, or because the other considered it inaccurate. It is a fact, proved
by the ancient Easter table of the Roman Church, that the cycle of
eighty-four years continued to be used at Rome as before. Now this cycle
differed in many ways from the Alexandrian, and did not always agree
with it about the period for Easter — in fact (a), the Romans used quite
another method from the Alexandrians; they calculated from the epact, and
began from the feria prima of January. (b.) The Romans were mistaken in
placing the full moon a little too soon; whilst the Alexandrians placed it a
little too late. (c.) At Rome the equinox was supposed to fall on March
18th; whilst the Alexandrians placed it on March 21st. (d.) Finally, the
Romans differed in this from the Greeks also; they did not celebrate Easter
the next day when the full moon fell on the Saturday.
Psalm 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect; the Word of the LORD is
flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
Psalm 18:31 For who is God besides the LORD?
And who is the Rock except our God?
chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>
A Blessed Passover Feast for you and yours.
Baruch HaShem Adonai
Praise the Holy Name of the L-rd
chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>
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