The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[Quester]

And If what Luke tells us is true, then she is as much above Elizabeth as Jesus is above John.

JESUS is above John because JESUS is God, and John is just man (and therefore, subject to God). Mary is one with the rest of humanity, including Elizabeth. Both of these women were blessed by God. Elizabeth was blessed to bear John, the forerunner of the Messiah, in her old-age. Mary was blessed to bear the Messiah, the very Son of God.

[RobbyS]

And who is the man Jesus? The Messiah, the son of the Holy One. And who is John? More than any Prophet! Remember what Elizabeth said to Mary: Blessed art thoud amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. How have I deserved to be thus visited by the mother of my Lord?" No one who has eveer been visited by Mary has ever done anything affept to ask that some question. Who is Mary? The mother of my Lord.

[biblewonk]

It's Quadiny.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

It's Quadiny.

Long live Diana of the Ephesians. :-)

[ksen]

How come?

Because as soon as you started making very valid claims about the falsity of their faith then they, or at least two of them, would start slamming the "abuse" button.

[RobbyS]

No, Jesus is above John because Jesus is the Christ. That is humanly comprehensible. To say that He is God, is not. To say that Christ is God, which is to say what Arius would not say, is to admit of a veil of mystery that the tools of reason cannot penetrate.

[RobbyS]

Which is to ignore history. The Christians dispossessed the goddess and let her great shrine go to ruin. Why should they worship under any guise what they thought was a demon?

[Quester]

No, Jesus is above John because Jesus is the Christ. That is humanly comprehensible. To say that He is God, is not.

Might this be true for you, ... but for others not ?

[biblewonk]

Because as soon as you started making very valid claims about the falsity of their faith then they, or at least two of them, would start slamming the "abuse" button.

That's frustratingly PC. Why to complainers have so much clout just like in the liberal world? One athiest and down go the 10 commandments and Christmas and the bible and everything. One complainer and down goes the thread.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Which is to ignore history. The Christians dispossessed the goddess and let her great shrine go to ruin. Why should they worship under any guise what they thought was a demon?

And then ran back to Ephesus to announce Mary as Mother of God around 500ad. Don't forget to include all the facts.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

had to hurry and appease those pagans with a replacement.

[newgeezer]

Sorry but, what's your point? I have no issue with any of what you wrote. So, I can only guess there's something semantical that I'm missing.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

It was at Ephesus that the christian church declared Mary to be the "the God-bearer" in 431 C.E. This move was intended to legitimize christianity in the eyes of the people of Asia Miinor. Prior to 431 C.E. Mary was not recognized by the Christian church.

Many of the Great Goddess's titles were taken, and declared to be the titles of Mary, including; "Queen of Heaven", "Divine Virgin", "Mother of All". Ephesus was chosen for Mary's installation to add legitimacy to the church's claim that Mary, not Diana, was "the Mother of God", the "Mother of All."

[RobbyS]

The Christians of the time treated Diana with great disrespect. The Council of Ephesus gave Mary the title of theotokos in opposition to the lesser title that Nestorius and much of the Syrian Church preferred: Christotokos. All of the parties involved in the council would have horrified by any confusion of Mary with a pagan goddess.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

The Christians of the time treated Diana with great disrespect.

Ya but the pagans didn't. They had need for appeasement. Your counsel was more than happy to do it.

[RobbyS]

Theotokos is a technical term which is employed to assert strongly the divinity of Jesus. It tells us no more about Mary than Luke does. To turn that around, however, the Church by adopting that title asserts that the Mary depicted by Luke is no less than Theotokos--the one through whom God entered history as a man.

[DouglasKC]

You guys think we could debate the mormons with out all the name calling and the pulled posts? Its something we haven't done yet. What ya think?

I think it's possible, but most of my understanding comes from scripture so it's hard to have a discussion about their books or traditions...it's the same with Catholic tradition. Still we could discuss the things we have in common and I'm positive it woudldn't get as nasty as we've sometimes seen.

[DouglasKC]

Because as soon as you started making very valid claims about the falsity of their faith then they, or at least two of them, would start slamming the "abuse" button.

Well ya see, that's the thing. You can see clearly that they are in error. You can see clearly that I'm in error. I can see clearly that you're in error. And I can see clearly that they're in error. They can see clearly that we're both in error. Now if we all believe ourselves to be walking in truth then clearly expressing your opinion that others are "wrong" is fair game. But the way the lds have been treated goes way beyond disagreeing and long ago crossed into petty sniping and grudge matches...at least in my eyes.

[DouglasKC]

Orthodox Christianity has never admitted that Jesus is the son of Joseph. He is son of God, son of Mary; true God and true man. Now that is a paradox, like so many things about Jesus. And If what Luke tells us is true, then she is as much above Elizabeth as Jesus is above John.

Gotta admit Robbys right. At the very most Joseph is Jesus's step-father.

[DouglasKC]

Alot of the time we will be taking about what we have said that day on this thread with our friends and family and they even ask us how you guys are doing, (I know we need to get out more:) and

lol...I know what you mean. I'll talk to my wife about you guys and I'll say something like "Big Mack said this...or Angelo (alright MALAKHI) said that" and she'll get this puzzled look on her face until I remind her about the thread.

PS: This year I think we all should gang up on angelo and get him saved, we ALL can work on that together, then we can fight over what church he goes to. :)

It's my belief that Angelo is saved. I think Christ never left him, but he just don't realize it yet. :-)