The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[nate4one]

Cindy, I would ask you to please at least think on this seriously for a moment because it is important.

God spoke to His people in covanental terms.
For instance when heaven and earth was to melt with frevant heat, it was compared to Noah. How the earth itself did not go away, all that happened was there was a new order of things. Basically God made a new covenant with creation (very important) not to destroy it again. Hence, the passing away of heaven and earth is a change in order, a change in covenant. Not a literal passing away of heaven and earth.

So yes, we are in a New Heavens and Earth. A New order of things. A completed covenant, a New Covenant with man.
When Revelation21 said the New Jerusalem descended from heaven as a BRIDE adorned for her husband, read Hebrews 12 to see who this "new Jerusalem is. And ask yourself, who is the "Bride" in scripture.
When it says no more crying, pain "for the former has passed away," ask yourself, what in scripture (covanentaly) passed away? Who is a new creation? What happened to your "old things?"

The problem with the futurist view is it is all based on whether you get all the "perks!" Forgetting that Christ said the kingdom is not of this world and is "within you" or "in your midst." And is always referred to as spiritual.
Will we be in heaven someday? Yes! But will this world be destroyed and replaced with utopia, nirvana? NO!
The Bible clearly states that "generations come and go but the earth endures forever."

God Bless,
Nate

[JHavard]

YOUR only evidence is that John was spotted on Patmos in AD 96. All that proves is a non-disappearance rapture.

Well, I guess I did ask for your spin, and you gave it to me.

Arguing whether or not the Lord returned in 70AD is like arguing with someone who claims the world is flat. Once you accept their claim it’s flat and forget that we have satellite photos proving the worlds a sphere, then you can get into some pretty interesting discussions.

Our satellite photos prove otherwise, just as history and scripture written after 70AD,prove otherwise for me. The facy that the disciple Jesus loved, John, must have been condemned to eternal hell, since he must not have been worthy to escape, and the fact that there is no account in any history, of any nation, that was aware of it happening.

All this has to be ignored before one can even start to discuss another option.

Prove to me why the apostle John didn't mention it, why he missed the rapture if it happened, and how the whole world missed the event, and why it's not even alluded to in history, and not just whatiff’s, then you have a foundation to warrant more discussion.

JH

[nate4one]

JH,
The reason AD 70 was not mentioned by John, but persecution of the church by the Jews was, is because it was written before AD 70. Rather than read scripture and see the evidence against post AD 70 authorship, you choose to believe word of mouth.

John wrote about what would happen in AD 70 instead of what DID happen because he wrote it BEFORE AD 70.

Why does no book mention the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 if it was written afterward?

JH, You chose not to believe the truth because you demand evidence over faith that Christ meant what he said. Funny thing is there is plenty of evidence AND Christ meant what He said. However physical gratification over the spiritual truth drives the futurist camp as it did the Jews in Christ's day.

God Bless,
Nate

[CindyDawg]

Sorry Doug but you have been bumped.

Ok, seriously now, yall have all probably already argued this, before I got here, until everyone was blue in the face, so I'm sorry if I am repeating but I'm going in blind. SOOOOOO..... three things

Since we still have tears, death, sorrow, crying, and pain this can't be Heaven.

God only promised not to destroy earth with FLOODS again(see Genesis 9:15)

This earth does "pass away" (see Rev. 21:1)

[JHavard]

JH, You chose not to believe the truth because you demand evidence over faith that Christ meant what he said. Funny thing is there is plenty of evidence AND Christ meant what He said. However physical gratification over the spiritual truth drives the futurist camp as it did the Jews in Christ's day.

So the only real truths are those that have no Biblical foundation or proof? Hummmm

Then that would be proof you had the truth, if it was based on faith alone with nothing else to support it? Hummmm

If truth were based on faith alone, anything you chose to believe, as long as you had faith, would be the truth, and supported by God. Hummmmm

All the heretics and false teachers that Paul and John and all the writers warned us about, if they had simply had faith in their nonsense, then it would have been acceptable to God? Hummm

A legitimate faith must be built on a solid foundation. Small questions that arise that cast doubt on certain parts of it, can be set aside and accepted by faith until God gives you the complete answer. But to start out with nothing but faith as a belief, with no logical proof of any doctrine, is a little much to accept.

JH

[JHavard]

It seems like only 6 months ago I told you to remember to set your clocks back one hour.
Well, I was wrong. You're supposed to set them ahead one hour, so you loose one hour of sleep tonight and you'll be an hour late for services in the morning.

Another public announcement.

JH

[CindyDawg]

You SPRING forward and FALL backwards :')

[JHavard]

You SPRING forward and FALL backwards :')

Thanks smarty, but what about our clocks?

JH :-)

[JHavard]

You SPRING forward and FALL backwards :')

I thinks this custom came from the Bible. It was when Judas betrayed Jesus, and the men and officers fall backward, and then Peter springed forward and lopped off an ear.

I wouldn't swear by it mind you, but I think that's how it all got started. FYI

JH :-)

[CindyDawg]

Thanks a lot. Now I feel really bad. I have thought and said some very bad things about changing time and now you tell me it's Biblical. :'(

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Man I'm getting good at this. I didn't have to read the signature of post 46203. I read halfway thru the first paragraph and knew who it was. lol.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

7000 years is fictional.

Says you.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

The Bible never said you would leave. It simply said you would be with the Lord in the "air" (Greek word for "presence.") Actually Revelation 21 said He was coming down to US. To dwell with us on earth.

How come I agree with this?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Actually Revelation 21 said He was coming down to US. To dwell with us on earth.

Why would this not mean Jesus is coming back?

[DouglasKC]

Well, I was wrong. You're supposed to set them ahead one hour, so you loose one hour of sleep tonight and you'll be an hour late for services in the morning.

Yet another reason why the Lord in his infinite wisdom decided to create the sabbath on the seventh day... :-)

[DouglasKC]

It will take me awhile to get back with you on scripture about that. I'm still gathering hell verses to debate Douglas with lol.

You've got to invest in an computer bible CD... :-)

[CindyDawg]

You've got to invest in an computer bible CD... :-)

HMM. Well, I was dragged into the computer age, kicking and screaming . I have the Bible links yall gave me, but it does require me to actually use them:') (Besides my computer won't fit in my purse. lol.) I do use the computer when I get stuck or am in a hurry to find something but usually I like looking for stuff in the Bible the hard way. It helps me learn my way around. If someone asks me a question, I want to be able to show where I can back up with scripture in the Bible. Even when I look something up on the computer I still go to the Book to double check. That's why I usually post only reference and not scripture. I want people to read their Bibles.

[nate4one]

Cindy,
I addressed this briefly in my last post to you. I believe when we die you will have your literal bliss, however as I said, Revelation 21 is speaking of a covanental reality.
No pain or crying is like saying there is no remorse, guilt or regret over anything past that Christ has forgiven us because " the former things (old man) have passed away."
I did an entire study I would be happy to email you on the eternity of this earth. There is more evidence to support an eternally sustained planet than the couple passages about the "heavens and the earth" passing away. The heavens and the earth are covanental terms for the old and new order of things. The old and new covenants.

God did not just say "with flood" the intent by it's context is clearly deeper than that.
Then the Lord said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done. 22 "While the earth remains, Seedtime and harvest, Cold and heat, Winter and summer, And day and night Shall not cease."

The intent is clear that mans wickedness will NEVER AGAIN be a reason for God cursing or destroying the earth. However the literalist view of "heavens and earth" in the futurist mindset once again make God a liar.
And before you attack Genesis 8, look up the Greek, there is NO Greek that supports "While the earth remains." But Strongs gives as the only possibility "Still the earth remains.." If you don't believe me, read strongs for yourself!
God Bless
Nate

[nate4one]

JH,
I already presented more proof than you.
Your proof is that a man was told that another man saw John on Patmos.

My proof is that John never mentioned AD 70 (the second biggest modern day event in his lifetime).
John mentioned the priesthood as if it was still in existence but after AD 70, it was not existent.
John measured the temple.
Etc.

It is not logical to believe Revelation was written post AD 70 with all the internal evidence.

Other proof I have posted time and time again.
Christ said it! Using the same type of speech as prophets of old who prophesied doom on others. The apostles taught it! Confirming THEY were in the last days.

The signs of Matt 24 are declared by Jude, John and Josephus.
YOU have no proof Christ did not return when he said. I have Biblical proclimation and world history proving it's fulfillment.

God Bless
Nate

[nate4one]

How come I agree with this?

Because you are coming around?? :o)