Did Jesus Truly Say, “I Will Build My Church Upon Peter?”

The reason For My faith ^ | 6/3/22 | Chuck Ness

[ebb tide]

No catholics have accused me of catholic-bashing.

Only ex-Catholics and other protestants have accused me of doing so.

Ever wondered why, metmom?

[metmom]

And assumption, plain and simple.

NOBODY can know exactly what words Jesus used in that interaction.

Basing your interpretation of it based on suppositions and hypotheticals is a sure fire recipe for error and deception.

[G Larry]

The prerogatives Christ promised are manifestly personal to Peter.

Peter's profession of faith was not made in the name of the other Apostles.

Otherwise, Christ would not have introduced the subject by distinguishing him by his name Simon son of Johah.

[roving]

Because you hide your posts behind [Catholic Caucus]

[Honest Nigerian]

Not sure what Scripture says about that. But it could be a reference to Simon Peter’s obstinacy. He was hard-headed. And impulsive. But only God knows the reason (unless you can show us from Scripture).

[roving]

We Christians are the church.

[ebb tide]

I’m not hiding.

I just choose to keep rabid anti-Catholics off of them.

[Secret Agent Man]

You are correct. Jesus called Simon “petros”, a pebble. He called Himself “petra”, on which the church was built.

[Claud]

NOBODY can know exactly what words Jesus used in that interaction.

Scripture tells us what words Jesus used. John 1:42: "You are Simon the son of John, you will be called Cephas, which means* Peter"

* "Means"/"is translated"/"is interpreted"...however you want to translate ἑρμηνεύεται.

[ebb tide]

Show me where Catholics have accused me of Catholic-bashing, whether on open or caucused threads.

[ALPAPilot]

Here are some questions concerning the Greek:

Does Jesus anywhere refer to Simon prior to this as Πέτρος?

ταυτᾳ is a demonstrative adjective, you seem to be suggesting that Jesus is using it reflexively. I have not encountered that usage.

LSJ points out that πέτρος can be either masculine or feminine. It also points out some sublte and interesting usage differences between πέτρος and πέτρα. e.g. In Homer πέτρος, as opposed to λίθος, is used to indicate a stone that is used as a weapon in battle.

As in most any languages, pronouns are tricky to translate. ἐπί in the dative has a large range of meaning in addition to “on” or “upon.” It can mean: in, at, near, over, in honor of, againt, besides, for, after, etc.

Even so, unless Jesus was using the demonstrative in pointing out a particular rock in a particular place, the phrase is metaphorical so that makes the use of ἐπί less certain.

The following verse concering the keys indicates Jesus is making some connection between the church that is to be built and Simon. The preceding verses however pointed out that his followers have a difficult time understanding him. I’m sure that observation is true of both Matthew and those of us who read Matthes.

That being said, I should spend more time reading the Gospels in the original Greek.

[Honest Nigerian]

After the Jewish infrastructure was totally destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, what happened?
It took a few years, but other earthly organizations (formed by and headed up by men) rose up to claim God’s authority to announce what God required.
But the Church of Jesus Christ is a living organism; a collection of all believers in Jesus Christ. IOW, it is composed of the saved ones. It is not a club, or society, or a corporation. And it is not subject to the dictates of men in robes (be it black robes, or red robes, or white robes).
As we used to say, “You can’t put God in a box.” And before you accuse me of doing that, reflect on how that is essentially what the Catholic Church (and, perhaps, some others) have done.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

😂

[kawhill]

A born and raised Catholic here. I have been to service in many Christian denomination churches. Everything from Methodist to Episcopalian to Lutheran to Mennonite to Seventh Day Adventists. They all have their idiosyncrasies, but each of these religions all have one bedrock: Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. Old school Catholics believe that not attending mass is a mortal sin. I quit that belief a long time ago. Just like not eating meat on Fridays during Lent. Where is that in the scriptures? The end for me was the number of pedophile priests who kept being transferred to other parishes to perpetrate their sins there as well. And the church hierarchy knew about it and did nothing. Off my soapbox now.

[Honest Nigerian]

Also, Jerome, who is the one who did a very early translation of much of the Bible (or the New Testament only?) into Latin was not a very capable linguist. He did a very poor job of it; maybe influenced by his own theology.
However, there are far better translations of the original writings.
So if the Catholics are going to claim credit for the translation via Jerome’s work they also need to own the fact that it is extremely deficient.
(Maybe the Catholics will try to claim Jerome’s translation is inspired and therefore it trumps the original writings. That would be the type of thing one could expect from them.)

[OneVike]

It comes down to me using the NKJV. let me see if I can properly explain./

I will use an image from my e-sword translator for this. Since it can be difficult to post the Hebrew needed to properly covey what I need to make my point. In Hebrew, the symbol used is for the word in question contains the horns of an OX, which means Strength: The strength of the ox.





A masculine noun meaning a rock. It refers to a large rock, a boulder (Jdg 6:21; Jdg 13:19; 2Sa 21:10); a cliff or wall of rock (Exo 17:6). It is used in figurative expressions: honey from the rock, from rock clefts where some bees lived (Psa 81:16 [17]); of Abraham as the ancestral rock of Israel (Isa 51:1); of a rock as a symbol of stability (Job 14:18; Nah 1:6); of God as the Rock to look to and depend on (Psa 31:2 [3]; Isa 17:10); of a rock personified, e.g., as Israel (2Sa 23:3); of God as the Rock many times (Deu 32:4, Deu 32:18; Hab 1:12). It is used of an insufficient rock, a god of the pagan nations (Deu 32:31). The word rock was often used a a symbol of strength and stability. Thus the NKJV uses the word rock to show strength. The idea is taken from the fact that a lofty rock or fastness was inaccessible by an enemy, and that those who fled there were safe.

Thus throughout the Old Testament the word Rock is used often times to describe GOD's immutable power and strength, and Jews of the early centuries used Rock often as a metaphor for GOD, as in HE is their strength, their ROCK which is immovable.

The original KJV worded the passage for Isaiah 44:8 as thus'
"""Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no I know not any. """"

However, in translating the OT Scriptures, the authors of the KNJV used a word more closely associated with the way the Jews looked at GOD as a Rock. Thus we read the NKJV for Isaiah 44:8 as thus;
"""Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one."""

Even the more accurate word for word translation, (As close as one can actually get) the NASB uses the word Rock also. Interestingly, the NKJV is considered more closely to the thought of the original language to which both the NASB and the NKJV both use the word rock in Isaiah 44:8.

Thanks for making me do this in-depth look into translations. It was fun. I pray my answer did more than just confuse you.

[Claud]

Good food for thought ALPAPilot.

None of us (presumably) are native in NT Greek. But there were Christian writers in the first centuries A.D. who certainly were. So why not see what they have to say about this passage?

[OneVike]

You are most welcome.

OV = Chuck Ness :)

[Telepathic Intruder]

"Works are the EVIDENCE of salvation, not its CAUSE"

Indeed. Works are a fruit of the spirit, and good works are an indicator of salvation, not a method to attain it.

[Claud]

Why is Jerome’s Vulgate relevant here? Did someone bring it up?

As far as I’ve seen, we on the Catholic side of this debate have been citing the Greek NT.