A Warning to the Intellectually Convinced - Protestant Caucus/Devotional

"How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard" (Heb. 2:3). Many people know the facts of the gospel but won’t make a commitment to it.

I will never forget a lady who came to my office, confessing that she was a prostitute and was desperate for help. I presented the claims of Christ to her and asked if she wanted to confess Christ as Lord of her life. She said yes and prayed, seemingly inviting Christ into her life.

Then I suggested that we burn her book of contacts. She looked at me incredulously and said, "What do you mean?" "If you want to live for Jesus Christ," I explained, "and you've truly accepted His forgiveness and embraced Him as Lord, then you need to prove it." "But that book is worth a lot of money," she said. "I don't want to burn it." After putting it back in her purse, she looked me right in the eye and said, "I guess I don't really want Jesus, do I?"

When it came to counting the cost, she wasn't ready. I don't know whatever became of her, but my heart aches for her and others like her.

I'm sure you know people like her—they know and believe that Christ is the Savior, they know they need Him, but they are unwilling to make a commitment to Him. Perhaps they even go to church and hear the Word of God. They are like the proverbial man who says he believes a boat will keep him afloat, but never sets foot in one.

Those people are the most tragic of all. They need to be warned—to be given a powerful shove toward Christ. May the Lord use you as His instrument for that purpose in the lives of many who are on the edge of a decision for Christ.

Ask God to soften the hearts of people you know who understand the facts of the gospel, but haven't yet made a commitment to it.

Read Matthew 19:16-22. What kinds of questions should you ask of someone who appears eager to become a Christian?

I won’t pretend to fully understand the theological views of TULIP, 5-point Calvinism.

Therefore I will also not attempt to defend it.

What I will say is God has blessed the ministry and message of men like MacArthur and John Piper who do systematic, expository preaching of the Bible.

I don’t agree with either of them on everything, but I believe they preach the true Gospel. I believe they offer a lot of solid Bible teaching.

When it comes to the issues of election and human will, I believe both are involved in salvation. The balance that satisfies my curiosity on the subject is—

1) For a sinner to be forgiven and receive eternal life, God gets 100% of the credit, and

2) For a sinner to remain in his or her sins and forever suffer the consequences that person gets 100% of the blame.

Both election and human will are Biblical ideas:

John 6:44 NKJV
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Revelation 22:17 NKJV
And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

But who gets the credit and blame?

Romans 9:15-20 NKJV
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”

Notice this passage does not say that humans don’t will to be saved. It says it is not “of him who wills”. In other words, we do will (choose, if you will), but that choice does not warrant any merit or credit on our part. We get the benefit, but none of the glory. It’s all Christ.

On the other hand, if a person wills (chooses) to reject Christ and the provision God made for our salvation, that man only has himself to blame.

Notice also that Paul foresees the predictable response to the Biblical view of God’s sovereignty concerning human will and inability. The carnal mind finds fault with God. The carnal mind blames God. The carnal mind draws wrong conclusions on these matters. The carnal mind cannot understand them.

This passage in Romans refers to Pharaoh. Who hardened Pharaoh’s heart? Well, God hardened his heart... and Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

Exodus 7:3 NKJV
And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 8:15 NKJV
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said.

I believe it is consistent with these passages that our hearts are hardened when we are confronted with God’s will and His word and refuse to change. And it takes, I believe, two forms. One, God knows in advance the condition of our hearts and unwillingness to obey, but He chooses to confront us with the truth and His will anyway (knowing that we will reject it). This results in greater judgment on us than if we had never known the truth or God’s will. Two, when we harden our hearts, God may turn us over to a state in which our hearts become more and more hardened.

2 Peter 2:22 NKJV
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

Yet, the scriptures put the responsibility on us to not harden our hearts:

Psalms 95:8-10 NKJV
Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion, As in the day of trial in the wilderness, When your fathers tested Me; They tried Me, though they saw My work. For forty years I was grieved with that generation, And said, “It is a people who go astray in their hearts, And they do not know My ways.”

John 15:24 NKJV
If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father.

Matthew 11:20-24 NKJV
Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

Isaiah 6:9-10 NKJV
And He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed.”

God has given us a choice to repent and trust in Christ. That possibility is available to all (during a limited time) but not all avail themselves of it. The angels who sinned were not offered a second chance. But we were. God was not obligated to do so for us any more than He was for the rebelling angels. But He sovereignly chose to offer mercy. There is nothing in us that merits His mercy, though He may find in us something that moves Him to mercy (because of His goodness and not ours).

Psalm 95:7b NKJV
Today, if you will hear His voice...

It’s a limited-time offer.

As I said, we have to interpret this matter from the very spare account provided us by John MacArthur. In this minimalist account, nothing is really explained. There are no details.

Why did this woman feel desperate? What things did they talk about? What else was said about her life and circumstances, and that book? Did MacArthur offer her any help, including further counseling?

And, again, this woman is being talked about, and she isn’t heard from.

With so many unanswered questions, then, we’re left to just take MacArthur’s account and conclusions about the woman as “Gospel truth.”

And that is really an offense against God — His truth and justice.

It’s not that MacArthur necessarily meant to do her wrong, to whatever extent he did here. And this is from 1993.

It’s that to judge people — especially including their hearts and motives — is perilous and questionable enough, and to do so without presenting sufficient evidence does put “the judge” in the wrong. And to immediately devise a “performance test” for a prostitute who’s taken steps to approach a pastor with her sinful situation, that’s quite questionable without offering any real evidence for the spiritual appropriateness of it all.

It’s as though MacArthur conducted a brief, one-sided trial here, with really no evidence, and found this woman guilty.

When someone — even a mature Christian — tells us similar bare bones stories about people, along with their own judgments on them, are we really just to unquestioningly accept them?

No, we’re not.

MacArthur rendered a judgment here on this woman’s spiritual sincerity at that moment, finding her insincere, and even apparently devised an extra Biblical test of his own making that she had to pass to his satisfaction right then and there for him to declare her faith sincere and genuine. He’s not Jesus, who knows her intimately because he’s God. One could credibly wonder if this episode was a mild formal of spiritual abuse

In any case, the evidence for MacArthur’s judgments here has to be genuinely considered. That’s our duty to the Lord, more so even than it is to that woman.

Maybe it is true that she wasn’t sincere. But from the account he provided, he nowhere near conclusively proved it to his readers.

Now, anyone can look at what he told us and say, “she’s guilty of the terrible sin of prostitution, and so on the matter of her sincerity, I’d say she was ‘credibly accused.’ That’s enough evidence for me to find her guilty of insincerity, too.”

But that is being indifferent to God’s will for us to uphold truth and justice.

And no, I’m not in any way making liignt of her sin, or the seriousness of sexual sin. I repented of lesbianism because I love and believe the Lord
Our worldly society has promoted and reveled in sexual sin to Satanic, Hellish levels, and the Laodicean church today participates in that culture to a considerable extent. I used to say often that I’m “almost Amish,” and that’s still the case. The entertainments, hobbies, material things I’ve happily left behind for the Lord. But I seek to have understanding and appropriate compassion and humility for the the grip that the world generally has many people today.

I have to say, too, that quite often many in the church lord over their “social inferiors,” like prostitutes, homeless people, and the low-income. — including in ministries where they serve them.

It’s as though many church people recognize themselves as sinful creatures inferior to their Creator when considering God, and give thanks to and worship Him, but then feel so superior to the groups mentioned that they regard themselves as God over them by comparison and expect to be regarded that way. And I have to say, too, that I don’t say that lightly. As I’ve said, I’ve been both low-income and homeless, and I’ve experienced and witnessed that happening a great many times, including that “superior church people” are entitled to make snap judgments, with carte blanche freedom, against people in those groups. It’s like, such spiritually drunken power trips and playing God, with whatever amount of respect for the truth one feels like having, are actually okay when dealing with such people. Perhaps because it can be like a nice break from reality to be able to so comfortably sit in judgment on at least some people. There’s a spirit, too, of “these people are so unrighteous and so unimportant that getting any facts right about them and giving them the due consideration that you’d give any human being isn’t worth my time.”

When homeless, I’ve often told Christians in churches and ministries in real life that I have a strong relationship with the Lord and that the Lord has had me low-income and sometimes homeless to have me accomplish some things and minister to others, and these things can’t be done otherwise. For the most part, church people have refused to even consider that could be true. Just as the Creator-creature relationship is absolute, unquestionable, so they seem to be confident that they have to absolutely be spiritually far superior to me. Some I’ve sometimes gotten to know, and we’ll seem to have fellowship until out of the blue they try to pin some unrighteousness on me.

God knows how hard I’ve worked in my life, including working very hard at menial jobs despite being a gifted from Him with a lot of intelligence and having a bachelor’s degree. Given so many circumstances and experiences in my life, starting with my childhood, I could have simply gone for disability for psychological reasons decades ago. But as a Christian, if I could work, even if out of place at a menial job, that would be the right thing to do. And that’s what I did until I developed as a middle-aged woman physical problems that interfered with my ability to work, and I had no human support system, no natural family or church family.

While homeless, I met a couple young women who went around ministering. I got to know them some. They liked talking to me about spiritual things.

Yet despite me telling them of my physical problems and situation, more than once they tried to accuse me of “not working.” “If you don’t work, you shouldn’t eat.” “Just go and get a job at a restaurant downtown. There’s a lot of them.”

These two young women, in their twenties, came from solidly upper middle class families. They felt quite comfortable saying that to me despite all I’d told them about my life and medical problems. Does the truth matter?

God knows how devoted I am to Him and to His work. His passion is to save souls. Like some people are consumed with a sports team, always thinking about how they have to do this or that in order to win, I’m always thinking about how every little thing I do can best serve His cause. When I worked at menial jobs, I spent my free time serving Him in any way I could, and at my jobs worked as if He were my boss.

The First Great Commandment is basically to love and serve Him with everything we have, and that’s how I want to live. And anyone near me who is genuinely, through Christ, seeking truth can and would easily, before too long, find that out.

Once, I mentioned to these two women something like that I needed to stop at my storage unit for extra clothes since I was sleeping outside at that time, and it felt cold at night. One replied, “It’s not cold right now. It’s 60 degrees at night.” They’d often try to find fault, pick at and pounce on things I said. Sixty degrees is cold if a thermostat is set at that, and even in July when it’s 95 during the daytime,most people sleeping outside that I knew of used some type of cover. I ended up giving my winter coat in July to a man who had lost his blanket. But that woman was so haughty with me, I felt like telling her these things would make no difference to her.

One day I also met a Christian man who said he went around evangelizing to homeless people. I told him that I was a Christian myself and had a close relationship to the Lord. He told me he thought homeless people were cursed. I started to tell him how the ungodly culture made it more difficult for less able people to be godly. “You’re making my case for me,” he said. Then I asked him if he thought more well off and successful people in our Era were truly blessed since prosperity was causing people to abandon faith in God and the church to mostly be overcome by worldliness. He didn’t have an answer for that.

But he did want me to prove to him I was a genuine Christian. “Oh, so did you read the Bible today?” “Yes.” “Which chapters?” I told him the four I’d read. “That’s pretty good.”Like I said, it’s taken as an absolute that, spiritually, he’s a superior judge over me. And I could mention so many other similar examples with other Christians.

“It’s as though MacArthur conducted a brief, one-sided trial here, with really no evidence, and found this woman guilty.”

I disagree. It seems to me that you are judging MacArthur for what you believe to be him judging someone else.

I believe he did what was very appropriate by allowing her to demonstrate her faith. If she had followed through, it would have been an excellent testimony and God would have blessed her.

I’ve been to multiple recovery groups. In many of them when someone shows they are really serious about making changes people will step up and help. This woman probably missed out on the help other believers would have given such as food and a place to stay if she needed them. She would have probably had job opportunities.

The young lady I mentioned earlier who was using heroin, stripping, and prostituting was like this woman. I’ve met many homeless and addicted who just aren’t ready. Sometimes going through more hardship is necessary. Sometimes they never are willing to let go of the lifestyle that is destroying them.

Perhaps sometimes it’s not their fault. But you need to consider the possibility that sometimes it is. Sometimes people simply are too stubborn. Sometimes no one, no matter how perfectly they handle the situation, will ever be able to reach them. And sometimes it’s because THEY choose to be unreachable.

There were many that Jesus Himself could not reach. He did everything perfectly, but many still rejected Him. Some later repented. But many never did.

“It’s as though many church people recognize themselves as sinful creatures inferior to their Creator when considering God, and give thanks to and worship Him, but then feel so superior to the groups mentioned that they regard themselves as God over them by comparison and expect to be regarded that way.”

True. This was a major theme of some of Christ’s parables, such as the Prodigal Son. I’ve experienced the harshness and judgmental attitudes of many in the church. Sometimes it has been to the point I could not be around them or even part of their church. Nothing is so hurtful as seeking God in a church and having them push you away.

“When homeless, I’ve often told Christians in churches and ministries in real life that I have a strong relationship with the Lord and that the Lord has had me low-income and sometimes homeless to have me accomplish some things and minister to others, and these things can’t be done otherwise.”

I don’t doubt that for one second. It’s a mature observation to be able to realize that.

“Yet despite me telling them of my physical problems and situation, more than once they tried to accuse me of ‘not working.’ ‘If you don’t work, you shouldn’t eat.’ ‘Just go and get a job at a restaurant downtown. There’s a lot of them.’”

Oh, yeah. I know what you mean. That’s actually a misquote of the Bible and a misinterpretation.

2 Thessalonians 3:10 NKJV
For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.

What is being described is an unwillingness to work. It does not say, “If anyone does not work...” It’s “will not”. A person who cannot work is not unwilling.

See here:

2 Corinthians 8:12 NKJV
For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.

“Then I asked him if he thought more well off and successful people in our Era were truly blessed since prosperity was causing people to abandon faith in God and the church to mostly be overcome by worldliness. He didn’t have an answer for that.”

I fully agree. While many people who are homeless are cursed because of their sins or the sins of their parents, it certainly isn’t true of every homeless person. Job went through much worse but was very godly. His so-called friends told him the same things those self-righteous people told you. But God was not too pleased with them. There are Christians who claim that they don’t follow or believe the Prosperity Gospel, but they do in practice. The apostles were godly but were beaten, imprisoned, and murdered.

“Like I said, it’s taken as an absolute that, spiritually, he’s a superior judge over me. And I could mention so many other similar examples with other Christians.”

Yeah. I’ve had similar experiences. I can see why you question the purpose of MacArthur’s suggestion to burn that book of clients. But I don’t think it is an arbitrary standard such as asking how much of the Bible you read. Maybe even that person meant well because he thought doing this or that would fix all of your problems, which is not realistic. But in MacArthur’s case, I see this request as a kind of obvious first step for the woman to take.

MacArthur is a godly man. He was very bold to tell the state of California that he refused to let them stop him from preaching due to COVID. They threatened to arrest him, and he said, “Go ahead.” I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was being Spirit-led in his interaction with this woman. This woman really wasn’t ready, and she needed to be made aware of that so she did not end up with false assurance that she was saved. She wasn’t because she was not yet repentant. Nor was she ready to trust God. Hopefully, this realization led her to come back to God when she was finally ready to give Him control over her life. If she had left thinking it didn’t matter if she went back to prostituting she would be far less likely to ultimately give her life to Christ in saving faith and repentance.

Thanks for sharing your testimony. I hope that my postings don’t have the effect of making you feel judged or condemned. I don’t see myself as superior even if I’m pretty stubborn and vocal about my views. They are just my opinions, and I realize I can be wrong. I also enjoy the detailed feedback because it helps me to see where you are coming from.

Thank you for your response.
Unlearner, you should think about the fact that merely citing the scripture you are misinterpreting does not prove your interpretation. I can comment further, but you did admit that you have not studied MacArthur’s brand or any form of TULIP Calvinism. Your answers here do sound to me like your presuppositions, especially definitions have been influenced by Calvinism. Of course, I can see much truth in your words, but I am speaking to the very heart of MacArthur’s point, that he grieves knowing that she left him STILL in her sins, because she did not perform what he considers to be the required work of salvation for her.

Because of my personal history and my theological training, I am also reading MacArthur’s words with full understanding of his doctrine of “Lordship Salvation”. Faith Presses ON, you are writing about certain true principles and I appreciate your perspective, especially about accepting verbal accounts and not knowing everything needed to judge a situation. In my counseling ministry I first had to learn to really listen. Then I had to learn to ask and ask and ask. The best lesson I ever learned was this: by the time I had in my mind a clear idea of the problem, I required myself to ask ten more questions before getting to any advice or solutions.

However, your perspective. FPO, presumes that there is the possibility that this woman left her session with MacArthur as a saved person. This is inconceivable under his theology, Lordship Salvation. There are forms of Calvinism that might allow for it, but not usually, and certainly not his.

The perspective of Samurai_Jack on this thread is the correct one under my theology. Here is a blog which I find helps people understand what I mean.
https://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/
If you read on the blog let me know your reaction. (I have no connection to them.)

“Unlearner, you should think about the fact that merely citing the scripture you are misinterpreting does not prove your interpretation. I can comment further, but you did admit that you have not studied MacArthur’s brand or any form of TULIP Calvinism.”

What I said is that won’t pretend to understand Calvinism. I have spent many hours exploring this topic. Ultimately I believe we must rely on the scriptures rather than human logic or theology.

I’m not saying theology is a bad thing. It’s just that theology does not take the place of scripture.

Here is a comparison. Due to my background in technology, I understand more than many people the inner workings of the computer hardware, software, networking, and server components that allow us to share our thoughts on this forum. However, many elements are necessary that I do not have any knowledge about. For example, I understand HTML, CSS, PHP, MySQL, etc. well enough to build functioning websites similar to Free Republic. But if you asked me something about how to build the circuits and components of the computers involved, I’d tell you my knowledge is extremely limited.

I think you can see where I’m going with this. I don’t have to know how a TV works or how to build one to turn it on and watch something. I think this topic is similar.

Whether TULIP Calvinism is correct or incorrect is an important topic, but there are more essential bits of knowledge and specific instructions from God that are far more important. The Bible tells us a person can receive salvation by hearing and believing the Gospel. Therefore, the Gospel must be preached. The Gospel message mustn’t be a false Gospel but the one revealed by God in the Bible.

Since you know the Bible you are aware of many passages that support that the Gospel operates through our understanding. This implies a certain level of intelligence and knowledge to receive it. By this, I mean that a one-year-old does not ordinarily possess enough language skills to comprehend the basic Gospel message.

We are discussing finer points of theology on a thread that is a devotional. Certainly, MacArthur’s theology impacts his approach to dealing with this particular woman that he uses for illustration purposes. So, you have a valid reason to bring up his Calvinism. However, regardless of my agreement or disagreement with Calvinism, I do not find any fault with his approach to the issue of this woman being a prostitute. I see it as consistent with how Jesus dealt with people He encountered.

Both doctrine and deeds are important. The doctrine seems to impact the deeds we do. And this is the primary reason doctrines are important. The emphasis that we will be judged according to our works shows this.

“FPO, presumes that there is the possibility that this woman left her session with MacArthur as a saved person. This is inconceivable under his theology, Lordship Salvation. There are forms of Calvinism that might allow for it, but not usually, and certainly not his.”

From his account, which I will take at his word to be accurate and true, I would assess that this woman did not leave that room with eternal life. This does not mean I assume she was not elect and thus never “saved”. However, neither your, my, nor MacArthur’s opinions on this are decisive. Jesus is the one who will decide whether she enters His Heavenly kingdom.

2 Timothy 2:19 NKJV
Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

“Here is a blog which I find helps people understand what I mean.
https://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/
If you read on the blog let me know your reaction. (I have no connection to them.)”

I spent some time reading it. I think the best comment I could make is that it is impossible for us to resolve a debate over these issues in the limited time we have because it is something that a person could devote years of study and research to.

However, I wish to address something I read on that blog:

“The writing of Lordship Salvation advocates confirm beyond any doubt that LS is a works based, man-centered message that conditions eternal life on an upfront commitment to change behavior and perform the ‘good works’ (Eph. 2:10) that should be the result of a genuine conversion. Calling on a lost man to ‘turn from sin’ FOR SALVATION is to condition salvation on behavior, not believing. Lordship Salvation ‘corrupts the simplicity that is in Christ’ (2 Cor. 11:3) and frustrates grace (Gal. 2:21).”

This is quite frankly false. You mentioned that you thought my use of various scriptures was in error. However, you did not point out anything specific. You also did not provide a Biblical counterargument. And that’s fine if we are just accepting the reality that we can’t address all of the issues involved. But it makes me wonder why you brought up your opinion that I misinterpreted the passages I cited. I don’t know how to respond to that claim since it is not specific. I just have to assume you are wrong without any evidence to the contrary.

But concerning the attacks on what is labeled as “Lordship salvation”, I think that these attacks are spurious. The Lordship of Christ is at the heart of the salvation issue. Christ must be both Lord and Christ. These are inseparable. Repentance is requisite to salvation.

Acts 17:30-31 NKJV
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.

Repentance is the flip side of the same coin as faith. They go hand in hand. Faith follows repentance. Repentance is the breaking up of the hard ground so that the seed of the Gospel can take root and be fruitful. Repentance recognizes Christ’s rightful place as Lord, that my life is not in submission to His Lordship, and that I need to/must surrender in obedience to Him. Repentance is not merely a thought or emotion but also an intention. We must turn from sin (which implies an understanding of being a sinner who is disobedient to our rightful Lord). And we must turn to righteousness (obedience to Christ). A person who will not repent cannot believe.

John 12:39-40 NKJV
Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”

A person may have the appearance of faith, but without repentance, it is not saving faith. We can deceive ourselves and others.

Acts 19:18 NKJV
And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds.

We see the confession of sins here, in First John 1, in James 5, and in John’s Baptism. It is a mark of repentance. It is also implicit that such confession accompanies the intention to forsake these sins.

Proverbs 28:13 NKJV
He who covers his sins will not prosper, But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

My mother taught me that some people have to have the last word, and I am guessing you are one of those people, so this will be my last on the subject.

On citing Scripture, you did seem to get my point as in this response you do elaborate on one how you are reading the passages.

On the Gospel, it is very clear that you mean the works-based Gospel of MacArthur and other Calvinists.

On resolving these issues, it is very clear that you unlearner have resolved any and all issues by making the works necessary for salvation real and making your concept of faith synonymous with doing those works.

On definitions, you used the word spurious. I don’t think that word means what you think it means, but never mind, you are adding works to salvation under your definition of repentance. You have in your mind definitions of the word faith, gospel, confession, etc. which are all dependent upon your theology, a theology which you equate with the teaching of the Bible. You also have a definition in your mind of the word theology that prevents you from understanding what I mean by the word.

A Calvinist seminary professor I knew well, who is now with the Lord, refused to allow himself to be called Calvinist, he insisted on being called a Biblicist. The churches of the IFCA, of which MacArthur’s is a part and of which my church was a part when I was saved and discipled, are styled “Bible Churches”. I served my formal internship at the Bible Believer’s Church of Greenville SC which was so named because the founders felt like theirs was the only church which sincerely and fully believed the Bible. They later recognized and admitted the attitude of their hearts and changed the name to Heritage Bible Church. By the word heritage they meant their version of reformed theology.

At first John MacArthur resisted the term Lordship Salvation but has begrudgingly come to accept it. He as you do, incorporates works into the Gospel under the word Lord. However, he believes that the works are done through you by the same miracle power that caused you to pray the sinner’s prayer. The impression you have that you actually believed is an illusion and unreal. You also must form not only an intention to stop sinning but carry through on that intention by stopping certain sins and doing other positive actions. I do not recall MacArthur’s position on Romans 10:9 but many of his LS devotees believe that the irresistible power must force you to actually use the word Lord when you pray the sinner’s prayer with the full understanding that you are going to stop sinning and do certain other good deeds. That is why their Bible translation, the ESV, reads as it does in that verse. Many also insist that one must be continuing to do those good works at the end of one’s life or else one was never saved to begin with.

So, I leave it all with you. I bet I know exactly what you are going to say, I have been doing this for a very long time, but I will be very interested even delighted if you can surprise me in any way. If anyone else is interested in more along these lines, I recommend a site and a Youtube channel soteriology101.com. Dr. Leighton Flowers does a much, much better job than I do of defending traditional southern Baptist theology which is now being called Provisionism.

You were polite and Christlike. Thanks for that!
Maranatha!
BrianD

- Something else came to me while I was thinking about this lesson. It was actually taken from a book by JMA published decades ago, and apparently each daily lesson was intentionally only one page long. Of course, in the pre-internet era, publishing on paper typically necessitated stricter limits on length than today. So that would explain why the account of the meeting with this woman was so abbreviated, to also squeeze in the lesson on the verse.

- “It seems to me that you are judging MacArthur for what you believe to be him judging someone else.”

Rather, it seems to me you are biased here in your judging. “Judge with righteous judgment.”

There are TWO separate things here — JMA’s actual meeting with this woman and the account of it that he included in a lesson. As a lesson for Christians, we are to consider it. And we are not ever to unthinkingly, uncritically accept what others say. Isn’t that an especially severe problem today?

I also actually said we can’t know where his heart was with this. And I don’t think we have enough to go on to judge hers, either.

No human being is perfect. Paul said he hadn’t reached perfection.

Once years ago, a young man who was a Jehovah’s Witness came to my door early in the morning, and I lashed out at him. I don’t, and didn’t, use foul language, but I was rude. I told him I wasn’t interested and that he should also just leave his cult! Ordinarily, I’m more mindful that being a Christian means being truthful but meek towards others. Having thought of this again, I’ve prayed for him again.

For any number of reasons, then, our “performance” of faith varies somewhat. Sometimes it’s not very good. And we should always consider that possibility.

That thought brings me back to the state of the church here. Once again, it’s troubling how in so many situations, Christians — land leaders in particular — are allowed to “dish it out” to social inferiorsv without any soul searching or second guessing expected. After all, that person is sinful “trash” who “had it coming.” From what’s in the Gospels, however, I think it’s clear that Jesus didn’t approve of how easy it was for “better” people to judge their “inferiors.”

Remember, this woman apparently came to JMA on her own. They talked, and then she prayed to accept Jesus as Lord. After failing his “test,” she confessed fault — that she must not have really wanted Jesus. She might have gotten angry, though. instead. She might have said, “Then —— you!” And gave him the finger before raging at him as she left.

Recently I was spending some time elsewhere at an atheist-theist discussion page. One day a woman atheist posted an interpretation of God that was so vile, mocking, and blasphemous that I decided it was time to leave. That’s just a reminder of what a cold, fearless, and open rebellion towards God looks like. But even in such cases, sometimes there’s a change going on out of sight in the heart that we have yet to see. At the same time, as Jesus said, sometimes people can outwardly appear righteous when they are not.

- “I believe he did what was very appropriate by allowing her to demonstrate her faith. If she had followed through, it would have been an excellent testimony and God would have blessed her.”

“Allowing her to demonstrate her faith” would have taken input from her and her initiation. Sometimes the “good” things we plan or do aren’t God’s desired will, but come from ourselves.

Have you ever been thought more able to do something than you are? Have you ever faced failure or inability to do something?

Like I said, this is often a real problem with church authorities and older Christians — while they are entirely aware of and compassionate towards their own limits of spiritual strength, they sometimes forget that other people are nowhere near that point and automatically chalk up any “failure” to do what they say, and immediately, to someone’s “lack of faith.” And given the status difference, they often forego the humbling experience of second guessing themselves. And assuming they’ve — of course — rightly pegged these underlings can be doing spiritual harm to others and be in opposition to God’s Kingdom.

- “But you need to consider the possibility that sometimes it is. Sometimes people simply are too stubborn. Sometimes no one, no matter how perfectly they handle the situation, will ever be able to reach them. And sometimes it’s because THEY choose to be unreachable.”

Of course I’ve considered that. I’ve only maintained that the reverse also must be considered here, and that despite JMA telling us he drew conclusions, we really can’t on such little information.

All things considered, her prayer mignt have been sincere and the beginning of her leaving prostitution, never to go back, and developing a relationship with the Lord.

“2 Thessalonians 3:10 NKJV
For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat. - - - What is being described is an unwillingness to work.”

If certainly is, at bottom. I also questioned these two young women on how they defined” “work”. They seemed to think it meant having a job. I’d explained to them why I wasn’t able to have a job, though, and that in God’s sight, “work” is being productive for His Kingdom, whether it’s compensated or not.

- And the Prosperity Gospel seems to be the Gospel of the Laodicean church.

“Rather, it seems to me you are biased here in your judging. ‘Judge with righteous judgment.’ There are TWO separate things here — JMA’s actual meeting with this woman and the account of it that he included in a lesson. As a lesson for Christians, we are to consider it. And we are not ever to unthinkingly, uncritically accept what others say. Isn’t that an especially severe problem today? I also actually said we can’t know where his heart was with this. And I don’t think we have enough to go on to judge hers, either. No human being is perfect. Paul said he hadn’t reached perfection.”

What does judging with righteous judgment mean? Neither I nor MacArthur are condemning this woman. The judgment is made as to the reality of her either being converted or not. It is an assessment of something that none of us can prove or disprove objectively.

But let’s back up and examine why judgment is even necessary. The Bible asserts that we can know whether we have eternal life:

I John 5:13 NKJV
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

The Bible also directs us to examine ourselves and assess based on Biblical criteria whether we are “in the faith”:

2 Corinthians 13:5 NKJV
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

The Bible further asserts that we can know if someone else is a believer:

Matthew 7:15-20 NKJV
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

However, I will also point out that generally a new believer was received into the Church through baptism based on his or her profession of faith. In other words, they generally did not need to prove it but simply affirmed it verbally:

Acts 8:35-38 NKJV
Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Why is it important to know if someone is a believer? There may be multiple potential reasons. One very important reason is that if a person does not currently possess eternal life, this can only be changed by them coming to realize their need for salvation. People must understand their need for Christ and salvation first, so they can receive Him and the gift of eternal life. A person who thinks they are already a “Christian” could wrongly think they already have salvation.

Luke 18:9-14 NKJV
Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

This passage speaks directly to our topic of discussion. The self-righteous person here incorrectly assessed his own standing with God as well as his perception of the other person who showed humility. This also demonstrates that the criteria we might instinctively use to measure might be different from what the Bible says. Therefore, it requires spiritual discernment. I might be wrong to think that the person at church who attends more, gives more, and serves more is right with God. Likewise, a believer who stumbles often might be despised, but God sees that he has humility. He also confesses his sin and seeks to change.

Another reason we need to know if someone else is a believer or not is because it relates to whether we are potentially able to work together for the kingdom of God. And perhaps the most important example of such a partnership is Christian marriage.

1 Corinthians 7:39 NKJV
A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

2 Corinthians 6:14 NKJV
Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

The Bible is very clear that a follower of Jesus cannot and must not get married to someone who is not a follower of Jesus.

A final reason I’ll suggest for discerning whether someone is a believer based on conduct is because there must be some minimal standard. I’ll make a comparison to immigration and citizenship. This forum has plenty of discussion about people illegally crossing the border and planting roots in America. A nation needs to have borders and standards for allowing someone to enter, remain, or become a citizen. Otherwise, you aren’t really a nation but just merely a piece of geography. Likewise, the church cannot function as a church if there is no standard of conduct.

A person cannot claim to be a follower of Jesus and knowingly, willfully, and stubbornly refuse to do what Jesus said to do. Yes, believers do fail. But a believer must be seeking to bring his or her life into obedience to Christ.

So, a believer cannot say don’t judge me on murdering because I’ve cut back on murdering. I used to murder several times a year, but now I only murder once or twice a year. (I’m being facetious.) A believer is not a murderer. A believer is not a thief. An adulterer. A homosexual (i.e. engaged in this or any other type of sexual immorality). An idol worshipper. A prostitute.

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 NKJV
For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

This passage describes a specific situation in the church at Corinth. A man was in a sexual relationship with his stepmother. Some members of the church there prided themselves on how patient and tolerant they had been in dealing with this case of incest.

I will not post the whole chapter here, but it is all very instructive. I suggest reading it. Paul warned them that allowing this man to remain in the church while unrepentant was corrupting the church. He instructed them to put the man out of the church. And significantly, it seems Paul was also saying this was necessary not only for the benefit of the church but also of the man so that his spirit would saved. In Second Corinthians it is clear that this man had repented and Paul commanded the church to be sure to fully receive him and comfort him.

2 Corinthians 2:5-8 NKJV
But if anyone has caused grief, he has not grieved me, but all of you to some extent—not to be too severe. This punishment which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient for such a man, so that, on the contrary, you ought rather to forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with too much sorrow. Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love to him.

While the punishment may seem harsh, it is needed to bring about the changes that are required.

Revelation 3:19 NKJV
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.

Hebrews 12:6-7 & 11 NKJV
“For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.” If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?...
Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

First on this comment of mine:

“No human being is perfect. Paul said he hadn’t reached perfection.”

What I meant was no human is perfect so no one can perfectly judge anyone or anything.

“What does judging with righteous judgment mean? Neither I nor MacArthur are condemning this woman. The judgment is made as to the reality of her either being converted or not. It is an assessment of something that none of us can prove or disprove objectively.”

You go on to refer to numerous Bible verses that don’t directly bear on this, at least not in the way that you’ve describe. For example, there’s nothing to suggest she’s a false prophet, such as she would be if she’d come up with her own Gospel and created a cult that teaches Jesus approved of and promoted prostitution. There’s no sense that she had that much self-assurance in her sin.

And I certainly believe that God means for us to warn and correct alongside comforting and encouraging people. But as they fit the unique situation.

“It is an assessment of something that none of us can prove or disprove objectively.”

For all we know, she might have left prostitution that very day.

This woman had just discussed her situation from a Christian perspective and then prayed to receive the Lord. She will reflect on that and either take what steps she can to turn from sin to follow the Lord at the proper times, as the Lord enables her to, or else grow more hard-hearted in sin. But to expect certain instant things from her isn’t Biblical according to the whole counsel of God.

And you cannot equate prostitution with murder, as you attempt to. JMA didn’t. Would Jesus have simply let murderers go?

Finally, one reason — and likely the best — not to judge people on insufficient evidence is that you’re not just judging them, but also the Lord, which is even worse. If you decide that a new believer isn’t a genuine convert because they don’t instantly pass a test you devised, but also realize that you don’t truly know his or her heart, then if the person is converted, you are denying the work of the Holy Spirit when you should have just accepted that you don’t know. It isn’t wrong to ask critical questions about the faith of others, but under the proper circumstances.

On 1 Corinthians 5, what the Lord has been showing me is how our society has regressed to being far worse in many respects than the Gentile one of that time. Paul wrote even Gentiles wouldn’t do such a thing, but today even worse is done, and such isboften looked as as entertaining, even comical, rather than being something to mourn.

Similarly, this is what the Lord has pointed me in regards to the border. It’s a constant refrain now that we’re close to the Last Days if not in them, and there’s great apostasy and wickedness and little fear of the Lord, even in the church here, which often confesses to being a lot like the church of Laodicea. And what is there to reap from such sowing?

“He that hath no rule over his own spirit Is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.”
Proverbs 25:28

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.