“It’s as though MacArthur conducted a brief, one-sided trial here, with really no evidence, and found this woman guilty.”
I disagree. It seems to me that you are judging MacArthur for what you believe to be him judging someone else.
I believe he did what was very appropriate by allowing her to demonstrate her faith. If she had followed through, it would have been an excellent testimony and God would have blessed her.
I’ve been to multiple recovery groups. In many of them when someone shows they are really serious about making changes people will step up and help. This woman probably missed out on the help other believers would have given such as food and a place to stay if she needed them. She would have probably had job opportunities.
The young lady I mentioned earlier who was using heroin, stripping, and prostituting was like this woman. I’ve met many homeless and addicted who just aren’t ready. Sometimes going through more hardship is necessary. Sometimes they never are willing to let go of the lifestyle that is destroying them.
Perhaps sometimes it’s not their fault. But you need to consider the possibility that sometimes it is. Sometimes people simply are too stubborn. Sometimes no one, no matter how perfectly they handle the situation, will ever be able to reach them. And sometimes it’s because THEY choose to be unreachable.
There were many that Jesus Himself could not reach. He did everything perfectly, but many still rejected Him. Some later repented. But many never did.
“It’s as though many church people recognize themselves as sinful creatures inferior to their Creator when considering God, and give thanks to and worship Him, but then feel so superior to the groups mentioned that they regard themselves as God over them by comparison and expect to be regarded that way.”
True. This was a major theme of some of Christ’s parables, such as the Prodigal Son. I’ve experienced the harshness and judgmental attitudes of many in the church. Sometimes it has been to the point I could not be around them or even part of their church. Nothing is so hurtful as seeking God in a church and having them push you away.
“When homeless, I’ve often told Christians in churches and ministries in real life that I have a strong relationship with the Lord and that the Lord has had me low-income and sometimes homeless to have me accomplish some things and minister to others, and these things can’t be done otherwise.”
I don’t doubt that for one second. It’s a mature observation to be able to realize that.
“Yet despite me telling them of my physical problems and situation, more than once they tried to accuse me of ‘not working.’ ‘If you don’t work, you shouldn’t eat.’ ‘Just go and get a job at a restaurant downtown. There’s a lot of them.’”
Oh, yeah. I know what you mean. That’s actually a misquote of the Bible and a misinterpretation.
2 Thessalonians 3:10 NKJV
For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.
What is being described is an unwillingness to work. It does not say, “If anyone does not work...” It’s “will not”. A person who cannot work is not unwilling.
See here:
2 Corinthians 8:12 NKJV
For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.
“Then I asked him if he thought more well off and successful people in our Era were truly blessed since prosperity was causing people to abandon faith in God and the church to mostly be overcome by worldliness. He didn’t have an answer for that.”
I fully agree. While many people who are homeless are cursed because of their sins or the sins of their parents, it certainly isn’t true of every homeless person. Job went through much worse but was very godly. His so-called friends told him the same things those self-righteous people told you. But God was not too pleased with them. There are Christians who claim that they don’t follow or believe the Prosperity Gospel, but they do in practice. The apostles were godly but were beaten, imprisoned, and murdered.
“Like I said, it’s taken as an absolute that, spiritually, he’s a superior judge over me. And I could mention so many other similar examples with other Christians.”
Yeah. I’ve had similar experiences. I can see why you question the purpose of MacArthur’s suggestion to burn that book of clients. But I don’t think it is an arbitrary standard such as asking how much of the Bible you read. Maybe even that person meant well because he thought doing this or that would fix all of your problems, which is not realistic. But in MacArthur’s case, I see this request as a kind of obvious first step for the woman to take.
MacArthur is a godly man. He was very bold to tell the state of California that he refused to let them stop him from preaching due to COVID. They threatened to arrest him, and he said, “Go ahead.” I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was being Spirit-led in his interaction with this woman. This woman really wasn’t ready, and she needed to be made aware of that so she did not end up with false assurance that she was saved. She wasn’t because she was not yet repentant. Nor was she ready to trust God. Hopefully, this realization led her to come back to God when she was finally ready to give Him control over her life. If she had left thinking it didn’t matter if she went back to prostituting she would be far less likely to ultimately give her life to Christ in saving faith and repentance.
Thanks for sharing your testimony. I hope that my postings don’t have the effect of making you feel judged or condemned. I don’t see myself as superior even if I’m pretty stubborn and vocal about my views. They are just my opinions, and I realize I can be wrong. I also enjoy the detailed feedback because it helps me to see where you are coming from.
- Something else came to me while I was thinking about this lesson. It was actually taken from a book by JMA published decades ago, and apparently each daily lesson was intentionally only one page long. Of course, in the pre-internet era, publishing on paper typically necessitated stricter limits on length than today. So that would explain why the account of the meeting with this woman was so abbreviated, to also squeeze in the lesson on the verse.
- “It seems to me that you are judging MacArthur for what you believe to be him judging someone else.”
Rather, it seems to me you are biased here in your judging. “Judge with righteous judgment.”
There are TWO separate things here — JMA’s actual meeting with this woman and the account of it that he included in a lesson. As a lesson for Christians, we are to consider it. And we are not ever to unthinkingly, uncritically accept what others say. Isn’t that an especially severe problem today?
I also actually said we can’t know where his heart was with this. And I don’t think we have enough to go on to judge hers, either.
No human being is perfect. Paul said he hadn’t reached perfection.
Once years ago, a young man who was a Jehovah’s Witness came to my door early in the morning, and I lashed out at him. I don’t, and didn’t, use foul language, but I was rude. I told him I wasn’t interested and that he should also just leave his cult! Ordinarily, I’m more mindful that being a Christian means being truthful but meek towards others. Having thought of this again, I’ve prayed for him again.
For any number of reasons, then, our “performance” of faith varies somewhat. Sometimes it’s not very good. And we should always consider that possibility.
That thought brings me back to the state of the church here. Once again, it’s troubling how in so many situations, Christians — land leaders in particular — are allowed to “dish it out” to social inferiorsv without any soul searching or second guessing expected. After all, that person is sinful “trash” who “had it coming.” From what’s in the Gospels, however, I think it’s clear that Jesus didn’t approve of how easy it was for “better” people to judge their “inferiors.”
Remember, this woman apparently came to JMA on her own. They talked, and then she prayed to accept Jesus as Lord. After failing his “test,” she confessed fault — that she must not have really wanted Jesus. She might have gotten angry, though. instead. She might have said, “Then —— you!” And gave him the finger before raging at him as she left.
Recently I was spending some time elsewhere at an atheist-theist discussion page. One day a woman atheist posted an interpretation of God that was so vile, mocking, and blasphemous that I decided it was time to leave. That’s just a reminder of what a cold, fearless, and open rebellion towards God looks like. But even in such cases, sometimes there’s a change going on out of sight in the heart that we have yet to see. At the same time, as Jesus said, sometimes people can outwardly appear righteous when they are not.
- “I believe he did what was very appropriate by allowing her to demonstrate her faith. If she had followed through, it would have been an excellent testimony and God would have blessed her.”
“Allowing her to demonstrate her faith” would have taken input from her and her initiation. Sometimes the “good” things we plan or do aren’t God’s desired will, but come from ourselves.
Have you ever been thought more able to do something than you are? Have you ever faced failure or inability to do something?
Like I said, this is often a real problem with church authorities and older Christians — while they are entirely aware of and compassionate towards their own limits of spiritual strength, they sometimes forget that other people are nowhere near that point and automatically chalk up any “failure” to do what they say, and immediately, to someone’s “lack of faith.” And given the status difference, they often forego the humbling experience of second guessing themselves. And assuming they’ve — of course — rightly pegged these underlings can be doing spiritual harm to others and be in opposition to God’s Kingdom.
- “But you need to consider the possibility that sometimes it is. Sometimes people simply are too stubborn. Sometimes no one, no matter how perfectly they handle the situation, will ever be able to reach them. And sometimes it’s because THEY choose to be unreachable.”
Of course I’ve considered that. I’ve only maintained that the reverse also must be considered here, and that despite JMA telling us he drew conclusions, we really can’t on such little information.
All things considered, her prayer mignt have been sincere and the beginning of her leaving prostitution, never to go back, and developing a relationship with the Lord.
“2 Thessalonians 3:10 NKJV
For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat. - - - What is being described is an unwillingness to work.”
If certainly is, at bottom. I also questioned these two young women on how they defined” “work”. They seemed to think it meant having a job. I’d explained to them why I wasn’t able to have a job, though, and that in God’s sight, “work” is being productive for His Kingdom, whether it’s compensated or not.
- And the Prosperity Gospel seems to be the Gospel of the Laodicean church.