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To: vespa300
Michael means “Who is like God?” What is often not mentioned is that this is a rhetorical question, the answer to which is ‘no one’, thereby meaning to extol God’s greatness.

The Hebrew indicates this is a rhetorical question as it resembles other common Hebrew phrases very similar to it that also mean to extol God by presenting a rhetorical question, such as מי כמוך באלים etc.

Michael the archangel is a created being. He is identified as Michael over and over. He never stops being Michael. He is called Michael and an angel when Satan was first cast out of Heaven where he is fighting him (they are both angels):

Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. Revelation 12:8 But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels.
Was Jesus fighting the dragon? No, He was watching:
Luke 10:18 So He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Michael is an angel. When speaking to Satan he does not rebuke him directly:
Jude 1:9 But even the archangel Michael, when he disputed with the devil over the body of Moses, did not presume to bring a slanderous charge against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
What about Jesus? Did he rebuke Satan directly? Yes!
Mark 8:33 But Jesus, turning and looking at His disciples, rebuked Peter and said, "Get behind Me, Satan! For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Matthew 16:23 But Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me. For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
Notice also that Michael is still called Michael at the time of Moses. Moses lived after Abraham. Jesus tells us that Abraham saw Him and rejoiced. Jesus appeared to Abraham as “I AM” (YHWH). And when He did Michael was still Michael.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see My day. He saw it and was glad."
Not to mention the absurdity of Jesus making the claim that Abraham only saw an angel and rejoiced at the day that he would see the day of that angel. No, Abraham rejoiced at seeing the Lord.

Michael is only an archangel, a chief prince. The guardian (angel) over the nation of Israel. Notice that he is still being called Michael at the time of Daniel, which was over 800 years after Moses.

Daniel 10:13 However, the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

Daniel 10:21 But first I will tell you what is inscribed in the Book of Truth. Yet no one has the courage to support me against these, except Michael your prince."

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.

Daniel 12:2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.
So what is Michael doing the whole time? Standing watch over Israel as its prince! And what is Jesus doing? He is not a prince but a KING! And not just a king but the KING OF KINGS!!
1 Timothy 6:14 Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Timothy 6:15 which God will bring about in His own time--He who is blessed and the only Sovereign One, the King of kings and Lord of lords.
Michael is not YHWH but Jesus is. Michael is not the one whom all things were made THROUGH and all things were made FOR. God made everything!!! And He made it for HIS OWN glory!!! There is no creator but Him!!
Isaiah 45:12 It is I who made the earth and created man upon it. It was My hands that stretched out the heavens, and I ordained all their host.

Isaiah 45:18For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens—He is God; He formed the earth and fashioned it; He established it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
Yet, it is JESUS who this is said of below:
Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Colossians 1:16 For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Colossians 1:19 For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him,
Jesus is of the same divine essence as YHWH. Jesus alone is Lord - to the glory of God the Father. No angel Michael is to receive this glory. Only GOD alone:
Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
What does Hebrews 1 say about the supremacy of the Son over any and all angels.
Hebrews 1:6And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all God’s angels worship Him.”
7Now about the angels He says: “He makes His angels winds, His servants flames of fire.”
8But about the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,
and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
above Your companions with the oil of joy.”
10And:
“In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11They will perish, but You remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe; like a garmenth they will be changed;
but You remain the same,
and Your years will never end.”
13Yet to which of the angels did God ever say:
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet”?

745 posted on 06/22/2023 2:51:15 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos

>>>Was Jesus fighting the dragon? No, He was watching:
Luke 10:18 So He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.>>>

Come on man. When Muhammad Ali knocked out Sonny Liston, he watched him fall like a tree.

You people come up such spin twisting, and turning, you are better than any blacksmith. And just where does it say that Michael was created. Nowhere. The Angel of the Lord is pre incarnate Jesus, and that’s who was among the 3 who met with Abraham just before God destroyed Sodom.

Poor Bible scholarship. But this isn’t a point of salvation. As someone said, with so much to agree on, this disagreement is not worth it. Heaven won’t be determined on whether one believes Michael is Jesus or not. I do believe it’s Jesus because I have studied it and he’s not a created being. He’s the Prince who stands up for his people.....that’s Jesus. The eternal everlasting never created King and Son of God. So don’t be saying we are saying he’s created. Because you are lying about us if you do.


746 posted on 06/22/2023 4:11:38 AM PDT by vespa300
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To: Cronos

>>>Was Jesus fighting the dragon? No, He was watching:
Luke 10:18 So He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.>>>

By the way, do you believe that was a physical fight in heaven? Please tell me you aren’t that shallow. That was a fight over ideas. God could have vanquished Satan and his angels with one thought in one second. And I have to believe even you know this.

No, that was a fight over God’s law. It has always been over God’s law. Satan the accuser accused God of being unfair and before the universe. God allowed himself to be accused and put on trial. This is God on trial who allowed it because God could have vanquished Satan in a second, and his angels.

God’s law is holy just and good and is vindicated.

Isn’t it funny. You evangelicals of today stand with who?.....”The lawless one”.......scripture calls him the “lawless one”......and you have abolished the law too. The Ten Commandments. All because of the Sabbath which reveals God’s authority. Now you know why Satan hates the Sabbath. Just like in heaven...it reveals who God is. The creator.

That’s so funny....you actually believe it was a physical fight in heaven....like Frazier Ali. Come on man...and you guys go a little deeper? sheesh


747 posted on 06/22/2023 4:22:23 AM PDT by vespa300
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