Posted on 06/14/2023 10:48:04 AM PDT by vespa300
Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Roman catholic church protests that it transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.
(Excerpt) Read more at romeschallenge.com ...
1 John 4. Jesus is the Christ/ that Word which was God/ that came in the flesh and sits at the right hand of the father. Daniel speaks of Michael the Ark angel coming to bat for Israel during that “time of Jacob’s trouble”. Michael is not the “Son of Man” spoken of in Daniel 7
Michael disputed with Satan over the body of Moses. Michael is not Jesus. Michael is not Chief high priest after the order of Melchizidek, Jesus is! Michael would not judge Satan but Jesus could and already has for the Bible has stated that Satan is already judged. If Michael was Jesus, then he could judge Satan...but he would not because he is not nor was he ever God in the flesh.
By saying Jesus is an angel you deny Christ as having existed before the angels were created.
There is nothing in scripture that supports Jesus as being Michael. Michael is an ark angel created by Ancient of Days through the agency of Jesus the Son as the scripture says that by him, Jesus, all things were created. Jesus is God/logos/Torah in flesh...not an ark angel.
Michael the Arch Angel had to come aid in the battle with the Prince of Persia so another angel with a message for Daniel could come to give it to Daniel. Jesus can come and go as he wishes.
The Bible is very plain. Michael has the name he has for he acts in many ways as a “right hand of the king”...But he is not human not in the way the Word that was God became flesh. Michael the angel would not die for us...only God made human flesh could die for our sins!
Finally Revelation: And war broke out in heaven: Michael (not Jesus!) and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer (Revelation 12:7 - 8, NKJV).
Michael, Not Jesus, kicks Satan out of heaven. Jesus as we read through out Revelation has other work to do. Revelation says it is Jesus that loosens the seals to scroll of judgments...not Michael!
>>>By saying Jesus is an angel you deny Christ as having existed before the angels were created.>>>
Except we aren’t saying he’s an Angel. He’s the head of the angels. I already told you we don’t believe Jesus was created. Jesus is God and has always existed.
What you need is a good study on what the word Michael means, when “Messenger of God” is used, and who our high priest is.
Hope this helps. Seventh day Adventist theologians are the best in the world.....the entire world. That’s why they keep the Sabbath:
https://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/materials/is-michael-another-name-for-jesus/
“I’ve responded with my own many biblical examples, to show your errors.”
You’ve regurgitated stale manna. Mixing a few Bible references into your heresy doesn’t make it Biblical.
You’ve answered the matter before you’ve heard it.
You’ve pointed to websites that supposedly address every issue you might come across, but they don’t.
You’ve posted strawman arguments.
And you’ve simply ignored every Biblical citation and proof I’ve provided as if they don’t even exist.
“If you do not keep the 7th-day-Sabbath holy, you have BROKEN the commandment.”
If you don’t rest in the finished work of Christ, you don’t even understand what the Sabbath means and you’ve never once kept it.
John 7:19 & 22-23 NKJV
Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?...
Moses therefore gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?
There was probably no other issue that Christ’s enemies fought with Him over more than the Sabbath. They rested from physical labor on the Sabbath, but they wanted to murder Jesus. Here He exposes their error using the example of circumcision. The command to circumcise a male child took precedence over the Sabbath rest. Jesus even agreed with them on this, and argued His healing on the Sabbath was exempt as well.
I’ve likewise given you the example of circumcision. Both were signs given to God’s earthly people. Yet the New Testament explicitly tells us that Gentile believers do not need to be circumcised, and those who do for salvation are actually rejecting salvation by grace through faith in Christ.
Why is it so hard to see and hear? It’s because you are blind and deaf. Neither circumcision nor the Sabbath rest is commanded to be done physically by Gentile believers. They have spiritual meanings for spiritual Israel. Because you are carnally minded you cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God, and you cannot please God no matter how consistently you physically rest on the Sabbath.
Romans 8:6-9 NKJV
For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
Acts 7:51-53 NKJV
You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.
Hebrews 3 and 4 show that the issue with honoring the Sabbath is about the heart. Six times it references the heart: in 3:8, 3:10, 3:12, 3:15, 4:7, and 4:11.
Because you have an uncircumcised heart, you are unable to keep the Sabbath in the spiritual sense as Hebrews commands:
Hebrews 4:10 NKJV
For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
The Hebrew indicates this is a rhetorical question as it resembles other common Hebrew phrases very similar to it that also mean to extol God by presenting a rhetorical question, such as מי כמוך באלים etc.
Michael the archangel is a created being. He is identified as Michael over and over. He never stops being Michael. He is called Michael and an angel when Satan was first cast out of Heaven where he is fighting him (they are both angels):
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. Revelation 12:8 But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels.Was Jesus fighting the dragon? No, He was watching:
Luke 10:18 So He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.Michael is an angel. When speaking to Satan he does not rebuke him directly:
Jude 1:9 But even the archangel Michael, when he disputed with the devil over the body of Moses, did not presume to bring a slanderous charge against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"What about Jesus? Did he rebuke Satan directly? Yes!
Mark 8:33 But Jesus, turning and looking at His disciples, rebuked Peter and said, "Get behind Me, Satan! For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."Notice also that Michael is still called Michael at the time of Moses. Moses lived after Abraham. Jesus tells us that Abraham saw Him and rejoiced. Jesus appeared to Abraham as “I AM” (YHWH). And when He did Michael was still Michael.
Matthew 16:23 But Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me. For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see My day. He saw it and was glad."Not to mention the absurdity of Jesus making the claim that Abraham only saw an angel and rejoiced at the day that he would see the day of that angel. No, Abraham rejoiced at seeing the Lord.
Michael is only an archangel, a chief prince. The guardian (angel) over the nation of Israel. Notice that he is still being called Michael at the time of Daniel, which was over 800 years after Moses.
Daniel 10:13 However, the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.So what is Michael doing the whole time? Standing watch over Israel as its prince! And what is Jesus doing? He is not a prince but a KING! And not just a king but the KING OF KINGS!!
Daniel 10:21 But first I will tell you what is inscribed in the Book of Truth. Yet no one has the courage to support me against these, except Michael your prince."
Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.
Daniel 12:2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.
1 Timothy 6:14 Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Timothy 6:15 which God will bring about in His own time--He who is blessed and the only Sovereign One, the King of kings and Lord of lords.Michael is not YHWH but Jesus is. Michael is not the one whom all things were made THROUGH and all things were made FOR. God made everything!!! And He made it for HIS OWN glory!!! There is no creator but Him!!
Isaiah 45:12 It is I who made the earth and created man upon it. It was My hands that stretched out the heavens, and I ordained all their host.Yet, it is JESUS who this is said of below:
Isaiah 45:18For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens—He is God; He formed the earth and fashioned it; He established it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.Jesus is of the same divine essence as YHWH. Jesus alone is Lord - to the glory of God the Father. No angel Michael is to receive this glory. Only GOD alone:
Colossians 1:16 For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Colossians 1:19 For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him,
Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.What does Hebrews 1 say about the supremacy of the Son over any and all angels.
Hebrews 1:6And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all God’s angels worship Him.”
7Now about the angels He says: “He makes His angels winds, His servants flames of fire.”
8But about the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,
and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
above Your companions with the oil of joy.”
10And:
“In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11They will perish, but You remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe; like a garmenth they will be changed;
but You remain the same,
and Your years will never end.”
13Yet to which of the angels did God ever say:
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet”?
>>>Was Jesus fighting the dragon? No, He was watching:
Luke 10:18 So He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.>>>
Come on man. When Muhammad Ali knocked out Sonny Liston, he watched him fall like a tree.
You people come up such spin twisting, and turning, you are better than any blacksmith. And just where does it say that Michael was created. Nowhere. The Angel of the Lord is pre incarnate Jesus, and that’s who was among the 3 who met with Abraham just before God destroyed Sodom.
Poor Bible scholarship. But this isn’t a point of salvation. As someone said, with so much to agree on, this disagreement is not worth it. Heaven won’t be determined on whether one believes Michael is Jesus or not. I do believe it’s Jesus because I have studied it and he’s not a created being. He’s the Prince who stands up for his people.....that’s Jesus. The eternal everlasting never created King and Son of God. So don’t be saying we are saying he’s created. Because you are lying about us if you do.
>>>Was Jesus fighting the dragon? No, He was watching:
Luke 10:18 So He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.>>>
By the way, do you believe that was a physical fight in heaven? Please tell me you aren’t that shallow. That was a fight over ideas. God could have vanquished Satan and his angels with one thought in one second. And I have to believe even you know this.
No, that was a fight over God’s law. It has always been over God’s law. Satan the accuser accused God of being unfair and before the universe. God allowed himself to be accused and put on trial. This is God on trial who allowed it because God could have vanquished Satan in a second, and his angels.
God’s law is holy just and good and is vindicated.
Isn’t it funny. You evangelicals of today stand with who?.....”The lawless one”.......scripture calls him the “lawless one”......and you have abolished the law too. The Ten Commandments. All because of the Sabbath which reveals God’s authority. Now you know why Satan hates the Sabbath. Just like in heaven...it reveals who God is. The creator.
That’s so funny....you actually believe it was a physical fight in heaven....like Frazier Ali. Come on man...and you guys go a little deeper? sheesh
I just laugh when Cronos tells anyone that Michael isn’t another name/title for preincarnate Christ. Even his own CATHOLIC Saint Melito (he was made a saint) said it.
Bishop Melito of Sardis:
The Lord Jesus Christ is acknowledged as the perfect Reason, the Word of God; who was begotten before the light; who was Creator with the Father; who was the Fashioner of man; who was all things in all; Patriarch among the patriarchs, Law in the law, Chief Priest among the priests, King among the kings, Prophet among the prophets, ARCHANGEL AMONG THE ANGELS;
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc2.v.xv.xix.html
Cronos also believes that his CATHOLIC church didn’t change the Sabbath to Sunday (or thought they could). I posted 20-30 saying that they CHANGED the day of worship. One of them was from the Council of Trent.
The stuff Cronos comes up with just makes me laugh.
https://www.biblelightinfo.com/michael.htm
There wasn’t - however you are deviating from the fact that the Bible says
1. Michael fought with Satan
2. Jesus saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
At the same time we know from the book of Daniel that Michael is but one of the many archangels (princes) of angels.
And that Jesus is God.
Ergo - the Seventh Day adventist non-Christian belief that Michael = Jesus is false
Jude 1:9 But even the archangel Michael, when he disputed with the devil over the body of Moses, did not presume to bring a slanderous charge against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"What about Jesus? Did he rebuke Satan directly? Yes!
Mark 8:33 But Jesus, turning and looking at His disciples, rebuked Peter and said, "Get behind Me, Satan! For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."Notice also that Michael is still called Michael at the time of Moses. Moses lived after Abraham. Jesus tells us that Abraham saw Him and rejoiced. Jesus appeared to Abraham as “I AM” (YHWH). And when He did Michael was still Michael.
Matthew 16:23 But Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me. For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see My day. He saw it and was glad."
“our Lord Jesus Christ, that we may prove to your love that this Being is perfect reason, the Word of God; He who was begotten before the light; He who is Creator together with the Father; He who is the Fashioner of man; He who is all in all; He who among the patriarchs is Patriarch; He who in the law is the Law; among the priests, Chief Priest; among kings, the Ruler; among prophets, the Prophet; among the angels, Archangel; in the voice of the preacher, the Word; among spirits, the Spirit; in the Father, the Son; in God, God; King for ever and ever. “
He clearly emphasises that Jesus is the superlative .
Or do you think he means Jesus is a patriarch with multiple children? No.
Your Adventist beliefs that Jesus is one of the archangels is rendered false again.
Btw the book of Daniel clearly shows that Michael is one of the princes of angels ie one of the archangels.
As evidenced by the fact that no one held Jesus to be Michael until the 19th century non-Christian cult of "Seventh Day Adventists" came along
——>At the same time we know from the book of Daniel that Michael is but one of the many archangels (princes) of angels.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Ergo, you are false.
Only one archangel is ever named in the bible, and that is MICHAEL. Only the Catholic church names their archangels after ninja turtles.
Sorry Dude. Melito said it.
Michael is a created angel.
I am very puzzled by why the creators of Adventism, came up with the concept of Jesus as the angel Michael.
Michael - “who is like God?” - is referred to in Daniel (6th century BC).
Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
He’s also considered in Rabbinical Judaism and Pharisaic Judaism as the chief advocate for Israel among the angels.
But nowhere do they say the “Who is like God” is a comparison as you Adventists do.
No-one for 2400 years before Ellen G White and others created Seventh Day Adventist, no one considered Michael as God Jesus.
Why do you come up with such innovations?
The Supremacy of God’s Son
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Melito said or rather wrote that Jesus is the superlative .
Or do you think he means Jesus is a patriarch with multiple children? No.
Your Adventist beliefs that Jesus is one of the archangels is rendered false again.
Btw the book of Daniel clearly shows that Michael is one of the princes of angels ie one of the archangels.
As evidenced by the fact that no one held Jesus to be Michael until the 19th century non-Christian cult of “Seventh Day Adventists” came along
Note also that Jesus was sinless.
The adventist belief that the Christ inherited a sinful nature is just false - and contradicts John 1:14 “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
——>Melito said or rather wrote that Jesus is the superlative.
Nope. He said “ARCHANGEL AMONG THE ANGELS”
——>Your Adventist beliefs that Jesus is one of the archangels is rendered false again.
Nope. Only one archangel is ever mentioned in scripture, and that is Michael. No ninja turtle archangels are ever mentioned.
——>A complete argument for Christ Jesus not being any type of angel.
ONCE AGAIN, not a created angel. Melito got it. Why can’t you?
“As this study shows, according to scriptures, Jesus is the angel of the LORD, the angel of God, the angel of the covenant, the Archangel Michael, who appeared time and again in the Old Testament to speak directly to His people. Michael is just another title for the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who is God in the flesh, the principle messenger of the gospel (archangel) to humanity, but He is not a created being.”
https://www.biblelightinfo.com/michael.htm
Once again, Melito made it clear that Jesus is not an angel.
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