How Will the World Explain the Rapture?

Rev310.net ^ | 4/16/23 | Scott Savell

[Cronos]

“I am not aware of any study of the numerical structure of scripture before the late nineteenth century.”

I take it you haven’t read Irenaeus ( c. 130 – c. 202 AD)?
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08130b.htm

Or St. Ambrose (c. 339 – c. 397)?
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01383c.htm

Ambrose wrote
“The number seven is good, but we do not explain it after the doctrine of Pythagoras and the other philosophers, but rather according to the manifestation and division of the grace of the Spirit; for the prophet Isaias has enumerated the principal gifts of the Holy Spirit as seven”

[Philsworld]

——>As Daniel notes, there are many “princes” of angels i.e. archangels

Where in Daniel does he call the princes ARCHANGELS? Chapter and verse please.

“As this study shows, according to scriptures, Jesus is the angel of the LORD, the angel of God, the angel of the covenant, the Archangel Michael, who appeared time and again in the Old Testament to speak directly to His people. MICHAEL IS JUST ANOTHER TITLE FOR THE SON OF GOD, Jesus Christ, who is God in the flesh, the principle messenger of the gospel (archangel) to humanity, BUT HE IS NOT A CREATED BEING.”
https://www.biblelightinfo.com/michael.htm

Even your church’s own “Saint” Melito states that Jesus Christ is called ARCHANGEL AMONG THE ANGELS.

Saying that Jesus Christ is a CREATED ANGEL would be ridiculous, and no one is saying that, except you, about the SDA church. Wrong as usual.

“Saint” Bishop Melito of Sardis:

The Lord Jesus Christ is acknowledged as the perfect Reason, the Word of God; who was begotten before the light; who was Creator with the Father; who was the Fashioner of man; who was all things in all; Patriarch among the patriarchs, Law in the law, Chief Priest among the priests, King among the kings, Prophet among the prophets, ARCHANGEL AMONG THE ANGELS…
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc2.v.xv.xix.html

Also, can you show me from SCRIPTURE where any other archangel is named, other than Michael?

[Philsworld]

——>Ambrose wrote...

God wrote:

Exodus 20:
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

[Cronos]

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me

Daniel 10:21 (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

Michael is one of the chief princes i.e. one of the archangels.

Michael is not Jesus, unlike what your 19th century cult called Seventh Day Adventists believes - or what your sister cult, the Jehovah's Watnesses believes

[Cronos]

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me

Daniel 10:21 (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

Michael is one of the chief princes i.e. one of the archangels.

Michael is not Jesus, unlike what your 19th century cult called Seventh Day Adventists believes - or what your sister cult, the Jehovah's Watnesses believes

[Cronos]

And directed to Philsworld who thinks that Jesus is the angel Michael

Oh, please learn to read!

“Archangel among the angels” does not mean that Jesus was a literal angel rather than God, while all of these phrases:

“Creator with the Father”

“who was the Fashioner of man”

“who was all things in all”

mean He is equal to God the Father and therefore Divine.

Melito wrote plainly about Christ’s divinity: “He who fastened the universe has been fastened to a tree; the Sovereign has been insulted; the God has been murdered” (On the Passover)

Harris completely obliterated your erroneous assertions about Melito of Sardis 15 years ago: https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-God-Testament-Theos-Reference/dp/160608108X

Hebrews 1:7-8 (ESV) clearly shows that the NT authors make distinction between Jesus and angels. https://catholicproductions.com/blogs/blog/is-jesus-an-angel-hebrews-1-the-incarnation-and-jehovahs-witnesses

[Cronos]

And directed to Philsworld who thinks that Jesus is the angel Michael

St Melito of Sardis actually wrote

“our Lord Jesus Christ, that we may prove to your love that this Being is perfect reason, the Word of God; He who was begotten before the light; He who is Creator together with the Father; He who is the Fashioner of man; He who is all in all; He who among the patriarchs is Patriarch; He who in the law is the Law; among the priests, Chief Priest; among kings, the Ruler; among prophets, the Prophet; among the angels, Archangel; in the voice of the preacher, the Word; among spirits, the Spirit; in the Father, the Son; in God, God; King for ever and ever. “

He clearly emphasises that Jesus is the superlative .

Or do you think he means Jesus is a patriarch with multiple children? No.

Your Adventist beliefs that Jesus is one of the archangels is rendered false again.

Btw the book of Daniel clearly shows that Michael is one of the princes of angels ie one of the archangels.

[Philsworld]

——>Michael is one of the chief princes i.e. one of the archangels.

Only in your mind, Cronos, because it STILL doesn’t say that anywhere in the bible i.e. that princes are archangels. Why can’t you show me that from the bible? Oh yeah, because it isn’t there.

[Philsworld]

——St Melito of Sardis actually wrote

Among the Syriac fragments of Melito published by Cureton is one from a work “On Faith,” which contains a remarkable christological creed, an eloquent expansion of the Regula Fidei:

The Lord Jesus Christ is acknowledged as the perfect Reason, the Word of God; who was begotten before the light; who was Creator with the Father; who was the Fashioner of man; who was all things in all; Patriarch among the patriarchs, Law in the law, Chief Priest among the priests, King among the kings, Prophet among the prophets, Archangel among the angels; He piloted Noah, conducted Abraham, was bound with Isaac, exiled with Jacob, was Captain with Moses; He foretold his own sufferings in David and the prophets; He was incarnate in the Virgin; worshipped by the Magi; He healed the lame, gave sight to the blind, was rejected by the people, condemned by Pilate, hanged upon the tree, buried in the earth, rose from the dead and appeared to the apostles, ascended to heaven; He is the Rest of the departed, the Recoverer of the lost, the Light of the blind, the Refuge of the afflicted, the Bridegroom of the Church, the Charioteer of the cherubim, the Captain of angels; God who is of God, the Son of the Father, the King for ever and ever.
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc2.v.xv.xix.html

——“Archangel among the angels” does not mean that Jesus was a literal angel rather than God…

Of course Jesus Christ isn’t a literal, created angel. That would be silly.

——While all of these phrases…

Archangel among the angels is INCLUDED in those phrases. Melito CLEARLY means to say that it is a divine title/description/role of, Christ. That’s why he said it, dude. Yes, even Bishop Melito of Sardis saw that.

Jesus Christ took on the role of Michael the archangel, as he did with the Captain of the host (angels). He is ALSO called the angel of the Lord, the angel of God, and the angel of the covenant. Is He a LITERAL, CREATED angel? NO, of course not, because that would silly. Jesus Christ is God.

By the way, Melito’s inclusion of the role “Captain of the angels” is a direct reference to “Captain of the host (OF ANGELS), in Joshua 5.

You are clearly wrong. No doubt about it.

[Cronos]

Actually it “Michael is one of the chief princes” is in the Bible — Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me

Perhaps you Seventh Day Adventists who think Jesus is the angel Michael have a distorted bible like the Jehovah’s witnesses or Mormons

[Cronos]

“Archangel among the angels” does not mean that Jesus was a literal angel rather than God, while all of these phrases:

“Creator with the Father”

“who was the Fashioner of man”

“who was all things in all”

mean He is equal to God the Father and therefore Divine.

Melito wrote plainly about Christ’s divinity: “He who fastened the universe has been fastened to a tree; the Sovereign has been insulted; the God has been murdered” (On the Passover)

Harris completely obliterated your erroneous assertions about Melito of Sardis 15 years ago: https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-God-Testament-Theos-Reference/dp/160608108X

Hebrews 1:7-8 (ESV) clearly shows that the NT authors make distinction between Jesus and angels. https://catholicproductions.com/blogs/blog/is-jesus-an-angel-hebrews-1-the-incarnation-and-jehovahs-witnesses

[Philsworld]

——>Actually it “Michael is one of the chief princes” is in the Bible — Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me...

Show me ANYWHERE in the bible where prince = archangel.

[Philsworld]

Your post was wrong the first time you posted it, in 166.

Unbelievable.

[Cronos]

Nope, just because Christianity disagrees with your Seventh Day Adventist fake beliefs doesn’t mean that Christianity is wrong.

Rather there is adequate proof that you Seventh Day Adventists, like Jehovah’s Witnesses - aren’t Christian as you believe that Jesus is the archangel Michael

[Philsworld]

——>Rather there is adequate proof that you Seventh Day Adventists, like Jehovah’s Witnesses - aren’t Christian as you believe that Jesus is the archangel Michael

Yet I literally just showed you the exact opposite.

[Seven_0]

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

The Lord rebuke thee. Did Jesus say that? I have other questions about this verse.

[Philsworld]

---->The Lord rebuke thee. Did Jesus say that?

Yes, He did.

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #2

Jude 1:9 Yet *Michael the archangel*, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

This verse is a virtual duplicate of another Old Testament event-

Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the *angel of the LORD*, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

In both Jude 9 and Zech 3:1-2 it is Jesus, the *angel of the LORD* who is also *Michael the archangel*, contending with Satan for both Moses and Joshua.

[Kandy Atz]

You seemingly are agreeing with me at times, so maybe its just semantics? You quoted Galatians 6:15-16, so let's start there.

13 For even the circumcised [Jews] themselves do not [really] keep the Law, but they want to have you circumcised in order that they may glory in your flesh (your subjection to external rites).
14 But far be it from me to glory [in anything or anyone] except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) through Whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world!
15 For neither is circumcision [now] of any importance, nor uncircumcision, but [only] a new creation [the result of a new birth and a new nature in Christ Jesus, the Messiah].
16 Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule [who discipline themselves and regulate their lives by this principle], even upon the [true] Israel of God! [Ps. 125:5.] Galatians 6:13-16 AMP

I expanded the passage for clarity. If there is a NEW creature, there was an old, correct? Just keep that in the back of your mind. In the Body of Christ, the works of the Law do not matter. It is by Grace through faith we are Saved, or made alive in Christ! (Ephesians 2:1-9)
Paul is addressing Gentiles, finally fully embracing his calling.

11 Therefore, remember that at one time you were Gentiles (heathens) in the flesh, called Uncircumcision by those who called themselves Circumcision, [itself a mere mark] in the flesh made by human hands.
12 [Remember] that you were at that time separated (living apart) from Christ [excluded from all part in Him], utterly estranged and outlawed from the rights of Israel as a nation, and strangers with no share in the sacred compacts of the [Messianic] promise [with no knowledge of or right in God’s agreements, His covenants]. And you had no hope (no promise); you were in the world without God.
13 But now in Christ Jesus, you who once were [so] far away, through (by, in) the blood of Christ have been brought near.
14 For He is [Himself] our peace (our bond of unity and harmony). He has made us both [Jew and Gentile] one [body], and has broken down (destroyed, abolished) the hostile dividing wall between us,
15 By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.
16 And [He designed] to reconcile to God both [Jew and Gentile, united] in a single body by means of His cross, thereby killing the mutual enmity and bringing the feud to an end.
17 And He came and preached the glad tidings of peace to you who were afar off and [peace] to those who were near. [Isa. 57:19.]
18 For it is through Him that we both [whether far off or near] now have an introduction (access) by one [Holy] Spirit to the Father [so that we are able to approach Him].
19 Therefore you are no longer outsiders (exiles, migrants, and aliens, excluded from the rights of citizens), but you now share citizenship with the saints (God’s own people, consecrated and set apart for Himself); and you belong to God’s [own] household.
Ephesians 2:11–19 AMP (The whole chapter (Eph 2) is germane to this discussion)

Is it not clear that this is a NEW Body, where the old ways are set aside? And those who reject Jesus, whether Jews or Gentiles, are not parts of the Body? Is any Christian required to get circumcised? Do you carry a lamb to Temple to sacrifice? Is there a priesthood descended from Aaron? Absolutely not. Those ordinances were for the Jews alone. Why?
There are roughly 16 million Jews who REJECT Jesus as the Messiah, many are openly hostile to even the suggestion. But there are 350k Messianic Jews, who believe in Jesus as the Messiah, although some cling to the Jewish religious traditions, and do not fully enjoy the LIBERTY we have IN CHRIST.

BEFORE JESUS, there were two identified groups on the planet - Israel (Jews) and Nations (Gentiles, Greeks). Paul introduces a 3rd Group - They are taught the Word individually, as opposed to as a group. And most importantly:

28 There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ [are in Him Who is Abraham’s Seed], then you are Abraham’s offspring and [spiritual] heirs according to promise.
Galatians 3:28-29 AMP

Who is Paul describing? Why are we Abraham's seed (not physical descendants, but spiritual). Because his righteousness came by faith, not the Law (actually BEFORE THE LAW). Gen 15:6, Rom 4, Galatians 3:6-9, Hebrews 11:8-10, 17-19.

The Church, I prefer Body of Christ or Believers to avoid the very confusion we are discussing is a NEW BODY, made up of Believers, individuals from both groups who through Faith in Jesus, are made alive in Christ. Paul defines the three groups now on Earth.
32 Do not let yourselves be [hindrances by giving] an offense to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God [do not lead others into sin by your mode of life]; 1 Corinthians 10:32 AMP

If Paul discerns THREE groups on Earth, shouldn't BELIEVERS?

You dismiss dispensationalism, but equate any religious writing over the last 1500 years to be equal or better than Scripture! If Kermit the Hermit gives an opinion in the 4th century, who cares if he is wrong? What does the Word say? And if one can't CLEARLY discern divisions in God's Word, the Bible will be hopelessly confusing. Even Paul claims people were dismissing his Revelation while he was still alive. Who were the primary culprits - Judaizers, pagans, and Rome. And you can see that clearly in the ECF writing, which often teach a Gospel quite different than Paul.

This is from Bullinger. There are others out there, but this is adequate for our purposes.

● 1st. The Edenic state ended in the expulsion from Eden.
● 2nd. The Period without Law ended with the Flood and the Judgment on Babel.
● 3rd. The Period under Law ended in the Rejection of Israel.
● 4th. The Dispensation of Grace will end in the Rapture of the Church, and "the Day of the Lord."
● 5th. The Dispensation of Judgment will end in the Destruction of Anti-Christ.
● 6th. The Millennium will end in the Destruction of Satan, and the Judgment of the Great White throne.
● 7th. Will have "no end."
How anyone with the slightest Biblical understanding can dispute the above is beyond me. You may not understand it. And that is OK. Just recognize that within each ADMINISTRATION - if you prefer, God interacted differently with people. For proof, just compare the OT Jewish person's religious activities to your own. Is there not a CLEAR difference. Something changed, in this case, God had a HIDDEN plan from before the Foundation of the Earth, to build a Body with Jesus as the Head. The offer to Israel to receive their King was there for almost 40 years, but their leadership rejected their King, so the time of the Gentiles continued, Jerusalem was trodden down, Temple destroyed and the Jewish people scattered to the world. They were set aside for a time. And God would now work with individuals, not by the Law, but by Grace. Its so perfect in its design. He temporarily lost His servants, but gained children!

25 Lest you be self-opinionated (wise in your own conceits), I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren: a hardening (insensibility) has [temporarily] befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the full number of the ingathering of the Gentiles has come in,
26 And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob. [Isa. 59:20, 21.]
27 And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins. [Isa. 27:9; Jer. 31:33.]
28 From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God’s choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.
29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]
30 Just as you were once disobedient and rebellious toward God but now have obtained [His] mercy, through their disobedience,
31 So they also now are being disobedient [when you are receiving mercy], that they in turn may one day, through the mercy you are enjoying, also receive mercy [that they may share the mercy which has been shown to you—through you as messengers of the Gospel to them].
Romans 11:25-31 AMP

Read that passage carefully. We are NOT one big happy family, or a continuation of Judaism. Believers are the BODY of Christ made up of individuals who ONCE were considered Jews and Gentiles, but NOW ONE IN CHRIST. Israel's hope is all the unfulfilled promises of the OT. Our hope is to be with Jesus when He appears. (Colossians 3)

I am running out of time, and I wanted to share a bit more on rightly dividing the Word. Because again, if you attempt to apply what belongs to Israel under the Law to the Body of Christ - or vice versa, you end up in the religious ditch.

I quote Bullinger once more to save time.

To those who lived under the Law it could rightly and truly be said: "It shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us" (Deut 6:25). But to those who live in this present Dispensation of grace, it is as truly declared, "By the deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight" (Rom 3:20; see also Gal 2:16, 3:11, &c.). But this is the very opposite of Deuteronomy 6:25! What then are we to say, or to do? Which of these two statements is true? and which is false?

The answer is, that neither is false. But both are true if we rightly divide the Word of truth as to its Dispensational truth and teaching.

And because folks fail to rightly divide the Word, and do not understand its dispensational nature, they fail to understand what belongs to them. Note these ECF quotes. They are completely at odds with Paul's Revelation and teaching for Believers. Multiply that times multiple centuries of confused theologians and you have a hot mess. Stick to the Word - but rightly divide it!

2 If thou art able to bear the whole yoke of the Lord, thou wilt be perfect; but if thou art not able, what thou art able, that do.The Didache: The Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles through the Twelve Apostles. 6:2

1 But as for your fasts, let them not be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and fifth days of the week, but do ye fast on the fourth and sixth days.
2 Neither pray ye as the hypocrites, but as the Lord hath commanded in his gospel so pray ye: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done as in heaven so on earth. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debt, as we also forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil: for thine is the power, and the glory, for ever.
3 Thrice a day pray ye in this fashion. The Didache: The Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles through the Twelve Apostles. 8:1-3

3 Thou shalt, therefore, take the first-fruits of every produce of the wine-press and threshing-floor, of oxen and sheep, and shalt give it to the prophets, for they are your chief priests;The Didache: The Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles through the Twelve Apostles. 13:3

This will be my last post on this thread. Though I enjoy this, I am falling behind on some critical work. I've been studying the Word for 50 years. I fought this battle in college with professors and fellow students. I KNOW in whom I believe. There is not a theologian alive that will change what I know in my spirit. I admire your zeal. Fight for what you believe, as do I. I do examine other opinions cause it often makes me sharpen and defend what I know.

I don't believe in religion. Its caused my family much pain, and has been utterly useless in my life. I love God, because He loves me, and never fails to come through when I need HIM - and sometimes He just surprises me with His favor. I love His Word. For those with ears to hear, it speaks TRUTH. And its so easy a child can understand. (Psalm 119:130)

May God Richly Bless You!

[Cronos]

Sticking to Galatians that you started with

 1 Brethren, and if a man be overtaken in any fault, you, who are spiritual, instruct such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.  2 Bear ye one another's burdens; and so you shall fulfill the law of Christ.  3 For if any man think himself to be some thing, whereas he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.  4 But let every one prove his own work, and so he shall have glory in himself only, and not in another.  5 For every one shall bear his own burden.

 6 And let him that is instructed in the word, communicate to him that instructeth him, in all good things.  7 Be not deceived, God is not mocked.  8 For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh, of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit, of the spirit shall reap life everlasting.  9 And in doing good, let us not fail. For in due time we shall reap, not failing.  10 Therefore, whilst we have time, let us work good to all men, but especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

 11 See what a letter I have written to you with my own hand.  12 For as many as desire to please in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer the persecution of the cross of Christ.  13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised, keep the law; but they will have you to be circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.  14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ; by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world.  15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

 16 And whosoever shall follow this rule, peace on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.  17 From henceforth let no man be troublesome to me; for I bear the marks of the Lord Jesus in my body.  18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brethren. Amen.

You asked If there is a NEW creature, there was an old, correct? -->

The old is clearly shown in the letter to be the person before they repented, believed and were baptised into the Lord.

[Cronos]

This is not a new body -- this is clear in Eph 2:14 He has made us both [Jew and Gentile] one [body],

Out of the two there is now ONE.

This is just as the covenant with Abraham was not set aside by the Mosaic, but expanded on it.

For the Christian, baptism has replaced circumcision as the entrance into the life of the church. Colossians 2:11-12 witnesses to this: “In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” One of the reasons for this, though not the only one, is that now Gentiles were entering the Church.

St. Paul says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28) Even in the Scripture, it was decided that Gentiles did not need to be circumcised. Circumcision was a limited entrance, it could only be for males. However, both circumcision and baptism did require a change of heart, a true repentance, a turning to the Lord. The prophet Jeremiah preached, “Be circumcised for the Lord, remove the foreskins of your hearts” (4:4).

St. Peter was shown why we no longer need to follow those restrictions

The ordinances were for Jews alone as a presaging of the eternal priesthood in Christ