[Kandy Atz]

You seemingly are agreeing with me at times, so maybe its just semantics? You quoted Galatians 6:15-16, so let's start there.

13 For even the circumcised [Jews] themselves do not [really] keep the Law, but they want to have you circumcised in order that they may glory in your flesh (your subjection to external rites).
14 But far be it from me to glory [in anything or anyone] except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) through Whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world!
15 For neither is circumcision [now] of any importance, nor uncircumcision, but [only] a new creation [the result of a new birth and a new nature in Christ Jesus, the Messiah].
16 Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule [who discipline themselves and regulate their lives by this principle], even upon the [true] Israel of God! [Ps. 125:5.] Galatians 6:13-16 AMP

I expanded the passage for clarity. If there is a NEW creature, there was an old, correct? Just keep that in the back of your mind. In the Body of Christ, the works of the Law do not matter. It is by Grace through faith we are Saved, or made alive in Christ! (Ephesians 2:1-9)
Paul is addressing Gentiles, finally fully embracing his calling.

11 Therefore, remember that at one time you were Gentiles (heathens) in the flesh, called Uncircumcision by those who called themselves Circumcision, [itself a mere mark] in the flesh made by human hands.
12 [Remember] that you were at that time separated (living apart) from Christ [excluded from all part in Him], utterly estranged and outlawed from the rights of Israel as a nation, and strangers with no share in the sacred compacts of the [Messianic] promise [with no knowledge of or right in God’s agreements, His covenants]. And you had no hope (no promise); you were in the world without God.
13 But now in Christ Jesus, you who once were [so] far away, through (by, in) the blood of Christ have been brought near.
14 For He is [Himself] our peace (our bond of unity and harmony). He has made us both [Jew and Gentile] one [body], and has broken down (destroyed, abolished) the hostile dividing wall between us,
15 By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.
16 And [He designed] to reconcile to God both [Jew and Gentile, united] in a single body by means of His cross, thereby killing the mutual enmity and bringing the feud to an end.
17 And He came and preached the glad tidings of peace to you who were afar off and [peace] to those who were near. [Isa. 57:19.]
18 For it is through Him that we both [whether far off or near] now have an introduction (access) by one [Holy] Spirit to the Father [so that we are able to approach Him].
19 Therefore you are no longer outsiders (exiles, migrants, and aliens, excluded from the rights of citizens), but you now share citizenship with the saints (God’s own people, consecrated and set apart for Himself); and you belong to God’s [own] household.
Ephesians 2:11–19 AMP (The whole chapter (Eph 2) is germane to this discussion)

Is it not clear that this is a NEW Body, where the old ways are set aside? And those who reject Jesus, whether Jews or Gentiles, are not parts of the Body? Is any Christian required to get circumcised? Do you carry a lamb to Temple to sacrifice? Is there a priesthood descended from Aaron? Absolutely not. Those ordinances were for the Jews alone. Why?
There are roughly 16 million Jews who REJECT Jesus as the Messiah, many are openly hostile to even the suggestion. But there are 350k Messianic Jews, who believe in Jesus as the Messiah, although some cling to the Jewish religious traditions, and do not fully enjoy the LIBERTY we have IN CHRIST.

BEFORE JESUS, there were two identified groups on the planet - Israel (Jews) and Nations (Gentiles, Greeks). Paul introduces a 3rd Group - They are taught the Word individually, as opposed to as a group. And most importantly:

28 There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ [are in Him Who is Abraham’s Seed], then you are Abraham’s offspring and [spiritual] heirs according to promise.
Galatians 3:28-29 AMP

Who is Paul describing? Why are we Abraham's seed (not physical descendants, but spiritual). Because his righteousness came by faith, not the Law (actually BEFORE THE LAW). Gen 15:6, Rom 4, Galatians 3:6-9, Hebrews 11:8-10, 17-19.

The Church, I prefer Body of Christ or Believers to avoid the very confusion we are discussing is a NEW BODY, made up of Believers, individuals from both groups who through Faith in Jesus, are made alive in Christ. Paul defines the three groups now on Earth.
32 Do not let yourselves be [hindrances by giving] an offense to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God [do not lead others into sin by your mode of life]; 1 Corinthians 10:32 AMP

If Paul discerns THREE groups on Earth, shouldn't BELIEVERS?

You dismiss dispensationalism, but equate any religious writing over the last 1500 years to be equal or better than Scripture! If Kermit the Hermit gives an opinion in the 4th century, who cares if he is wrong? What does the Word say? And if one can't CLEARLY discern divisions in God's Word, the Bible will be hopelessly confusing. Even Paul claims people were dismissing his Revelation while he was still alive. Who were the primary culprits - Judaizers, pagans, and Rome. And you can see that clearly in the ECF writing, which often teach a Gospel quite different than Paul.

This is from Bullinger. There are others out there, but this is adequate for our purposes.

● 1st. The Edenic state ended in the expulsion from Eden.
● 2nd. The Period without Law ended with the Flood and the Judgment on Babel.
● 3rd. The Period under Law ended in the Rejection of Israel.
● 4th. The Dispensation of Grace will end in the Rapture of the Church, and "the Day of the Lord."
● 5th. The Dispensation of Judgment will end in the Destruction of Anti-Christ.
● 6th. The Millennium will end in the Destruction of Satan, and the Judgment of the Great White throne.
● 7th. Will have "no end."
How anyone with the slightest Biblical understanding can dispute the above is beyond me. You may not understand it. And that is OK. Just recognize that within each ADMINISTRATION - if you prefer, God interacted differently with people. For proof, just compare the OT Jewish person's religious activities to your own. Is there not a CLEAR difference. Something changed, in this case, God had a HIDDEN plan from before the Foundation of the Earth, to build a Body with Jesus as the Head. The offer to Israel to receive their King was there for almost 40 years, but their leadership rejected their King, so the time of the Gentiles continued, Jerusalem was trodden down, Temple destroyed and the Jewish people scattered to the world. They were set aside for a time. And God would now work with individuals, not by the Law, but by Grace. Its so perfect in its design. He temporarily lost His servants, but gained children!

25 Lest you be self-opinionated (wise in your own conceits), I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren: a hardening (insensibility) has [temporarily] befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the full number of the ingathering of the Gentiles has come in,
26 And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob. [Isa. 59:20, 21.]
27 And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins. [Isa. 27:9; Jer. 31:33.]
28 From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God’s choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.
29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]
30 Just as you were once disobedient and rebellious toward God but now have obtained [His] mercy, through their disobedience,
31 So they also now are being disobedient [when you are receiving mercy], that they in turn may one day, through the mercy you are enjoying, also receive mercy [that they may share the mercy which has been shown to you—through you as messengers of the Gospel to them].
Romans 11:25-31 AMP

Read that passage carefully. We are NOT one big happy family, or a continuation of Judaism. Believers are the BODY of Christ made up of individuals who ONCE were considered Jews and Gentiles, but NOW ONE IN CHRIST. Israel's hope is all the unfulfilled promises of the OT. Our hope is to be with Jesus when He appears. (Colossians 3)

I am running out of time, and I wanted to share a bit more on rightly dividing the Word. Because again, if you attempt to apply what belongs to Israel under the Law to the Body of Christ - or vice versa, you end up in the religious ditch.

I quote Bullinger once more to save time.

To those who lived under the Law it could rightly and truly be said: "It shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us" (Deut 6:25). But to those who live in this present Dispensation of grace, it is as truly declared, "By the deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight" (Rom 3:20; see also Gal 2:16, 3:11, &c.). But this is the very opposite of Deuteronomy 6:25! What then are we to say, or to do? Which of these two statements is true? and which is false?

The answer is, that neither is false. But both are true if we rightly divide the Word of truth as to its Dispensational truth and teaching.

And because folks fail to rightly divide the Word, and do not understand its dispensational nature, they fail to understand what belongs to them. Note these ECF quotes. They are completely at odds with Paul's Revelation and teaching for Believers. Multiply that times multiple centuries of confused theologians and you have a hot mess. Stick to the Word - but rightly divide it!

2 If thou art able to bear the whole yoke of the Lord, thou wilt be perfect; but if thou art not able, what thou art able, that do.The Didache: The Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles through the Twelve Apostles. 6:2

1 But as for your fasts, let them not be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and fifth days of the week, but do ye fast on the fourth and sixth days.
2 Neither pray ye as the hypocrites, but as the Lord hath commanded in his gospel so pray ye: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done as in heaven so on earth. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debt, as we also forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil: for thine is the power, and the glory, for ever.
3 Thrice a day pray ye in this fashion. The Didache: The Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles through the Twelve Apostles. 8:1-3

3 Thou shalt, therefore, take the first-fruits of every produce of the wine-press and threshing-floor, of oxen and sheep, and shalt give it to the prophets, for they are your chief priests;The Didache: The Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles through the Twelve Apostles. 13:3

This will be my last post on this thread. Though I enjoy this, I am falling behind on some critical work. I've been studying the Word for 50 years. I fought this battle in college with professors and fellow students. I KNOW in whom I believe. There is not a theologian alive that will change what I know in my spirit. I admire your zeal. Fight for what you believe, as do I. I do examine other opinions cause it often makes me sharpen and defend what I know.

I don't believe in religion. Its caused my family much pain, and has been utterly useless in my life. I love God, because He loves me, and never fails to come through when I need HIM - and sometimes He just surprises me with His favor. I love His Word. For those with ears to hear, it speaks TRUTH. And its so easy a child can understand. (Psalm 119:130)

May God Richly Bless You!

[Cronos]

Sticking to Galatians that you started with

 1 Brethren, and if a man be overtaken in any fault, you, who are spiritual, instruct such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.  2 Bear ye one another's burdens; and so you shall fulfill the law of Christ.  3 For if any man think himself to be some thing, whereas he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.  4 But let every one prove his own work, and so he shall have glory in himself only, and not in another.  5 For every one shall bear his own burden.

 6 And let him that is instructed in the word, communicate to him that instructeth him, in all good things.  7 Be not deceived, God is not mocked.  8 For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh, of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit, of the spirit shall reap life everlasting.  9 And in doing good, let us not fail. For in due time we shall reap, not failing.  10 Therefore, whilst we have time, let us work good to all men, but especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

 11 See what a letter I have written to you with my own hand.  12 For as many as desire to please in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer the persecution of the cross of Christ.  13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised, keep the law; but they will have you to be circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.  14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ; by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world.  15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

 16 And whosoever shall follow this rule, peace on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.  17 From henceforth let no man be troublesome to me; for I bear the marks of the Lord Jesus in my body.  18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brethren. Amen.

You asked If there is a NEW creature, there was an old, correct? -->

The old is clearly shown in the letter to be the person before they repented, believed and were baptised into the Lord.

[Cronos]

This is not a new body -- this is clear in Eph 2:14 He has made us both [Jew and Gentile] one [body],

Out of the two there is now ONE.

This is just as the covenant with Abraham was not set aside by the Mosaic, but expanded on it.

For the Christian, baptism has replaced circumcision as the entrance into the life of the church. Colossians 2:11-12 witnesses to this: “In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” One of the reasons for this, though not the only one, is that now Gentiles were entering the Church.

St. Paul says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28) Even in the Scripture, it was decided that Gentiles did not need to be circumcised. Circumcision was a limited entrance, it could only be for males. However, both circumcision and baptism did require a change of heart, a true repentance, a turning to the Lord. The prophet Jeremiah preached, “Be circumcised for the Lord, remove the foreskins of your hearts” (4:4).

St. Peter was shown why we no longer need to follow those restrictions

The ordinances were for Jews alone as a presaging of the eternal priesthood in Christ

[Cronos]

There are roughly 16 million Jews who REJECT Jesus as the Messiah, many are openly hostile to even the suggestion. But there are 350k Messianic Jews, who believe in Jesus as the Messiah, although some cling to the Jewish religious traditions, and do not fully enjoy the LIBERTY we have IN CHRIST.

I would point out that these are, properly speaking, Rabbinical Jews i.e. followers of the sect of Rabbinical Judaism

Let me explain:

At the time of Christ there were quite a few sects of the religion of Abraham and Moses:

1. Samaritans -- I'm going to include them. They followed the 5 books of Moses ONLY and rejected the books of the prophets. They still exist today and their genetic makeup shows them as descendants from the Israelites. Most likely the Jewish despising of them was that they were from the northern kingdom
   
   
2. 2nd temple Jewist sects
   1. The Sadducees -- the Mosaic books + the prophets and rejecting the Oral Torah of the Pharisees, These were focused on the temple
      
      
   2. The Pharisees: religious leaders with the Oral Torah -- to explain what this is, take the Mosaic rule "Keep the Sabbath Holy" - but it doesn't elaborate in detail what that means exactly and that's what the Oral Torah of the Pharisees did. This was later elaborated by Rabbis and codified and we see these discussions in the Talmud and in the Halacha. They were around the temple but had rabbis, etc. and were not as directly tied to the temple as the Sadducees
      
      
   3. Teh Essenes - ascetics who wanted to go bare bones Mosaic law + Prophets. Again, pin point focus on the temple
      
      
   4. Zealots - Pharisees but pint point focus on the temple
      
      
   5. Jesus movement Jews -- the Jews who said Jesus was God and that He prophesied the destruction of the temple in the Olivet discourse. They were not focused on the temple, considering that the New Temple was the body of Christ and the New Israel was the expanded Israel - consisting of Jews and Gentiles
      
      

Only 2 groups survived the destruction of the temple - the Jesus movement Jews (Christians) and the Pharisees came out of the destruction of 70 AD (and the Zealots to some extent)

The Pharisees changed into Rabbinical Judaism- a new religion not focused on temple sacrifices but todah and not on the temple priests but on Rabbis

So the 16 million Rabbinical Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah just as their spiritual ancestors, the Pharisees did

We Christians are a 2nd temple Jewish sect - the Jesus-movement Jews, followers of "the Way" as written in the book of Acts.

[Cronos]

Paul introduces a 3rd Group

This is very incorrect

Firstly - the first gentiles baptised into Christ were baptised by Peter

Secondly, the apostles Thomas, Thaddeus and Bartholomew also preached to and baptised gentiles in India, Parthia and Mesopotamia respectively

Finally - in none of these cases was this a separate group, it's always made clear that this is a continuation of Israel -->

Romans 11 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[b] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The Church, the ekklesia of God i.e. the community of God is where there is no Jew, no Gentile. This is the New, expanded Israel

[Cronos]

The thing is that the dispensationalist view is of biblical history in vertical relation to God

Christian theology, in maintaining that the God who created and sustains the world is the same God who “so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16), requires both perspectives, the vertical and the horizontal. The glory of God as manifested in biblical history is most fundamental in that this precedes and is presupposed by specifically redemptive history, while the history of salvation is most fundamental in that it involves a deeper and more intimate relation of Creator to creation (culminating in the Incarnation and Passion) than that given in creation as such.

The Dispensationlist view lacks the narrative unity of revelation - as ONE path that the ONE God

The fatal flaw in dispensationalism is the belief in the one thousand years of EARTHLY reign of Christ - this contradicts Jesus' own statements

Jesus' kingdom started in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem

There is no Biblical evidence for seven dispensations from God to men. At most there are two: before and after Jesus’ resurrection.