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To: Cronos; ConservativeMind; ealgeone; Mark17; fishtank; boatbums; Luircin; mitch5501; MamaB; ...
"Correct, one must be filled with grace and scrubbed clean of all sin before entering heaven as in heaven (God's presence) there can be no sin. The final stage in this purification is of course purgatory - not a place but the final burning away of our sin for us heading to heaven"

Your heresy has so often been refuted that there should be no need to do so again, but since Catholic, like cultist, seem compelled to abuse FR in persistently parroting their propaganda despite its fallaciousness being exposed time after time - as if that such persistence results in converts or an indulgence rather than being an argument against being a Catholic - then such warrants being reproved again.

First, there is zero Scriptural teaching on being forgiven sin after death (and Matthew 12:32 refers to the millennial reign of Christ), and in Scripture effectual heart-purifying regenerating faith - the faith which effects the obedience of baptism (Acts 10:43; 15:7-9; Titus 3:5) and following the Lord (Romans 6:22) - is imputed for righteousness, (Romans 4:5; 10:10) rendering the convert "accepted in the Beloved" and positionally seated with Him in Heaven on His account, (Ephesians 1:6; 2:6) and who, by His sinless shed blood has immediate access into the holy of holies in Heaven, (Hebrews 10:19) as one washed, sanctified and justified (1Co. 6:11) - which positional status he this seeks to actualize (Col. 3) - and will immediately go to be with Him at death or His return.

For wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers after this life then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord,” though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. (Phil. 3:7f)

And with the only suffering after this life being that of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's revelation and disapproval) at the judgment seat of Christ, which one is saved despite the loss of, and which does not occur until the Lord's return and the believers resurrection. (1Cor. 3:8ff; 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) And which resurrection being the only transformative the believer looks forward to after this life (Rm. 8:23; 2Co. 5:1-4; Phil 3:20,21; 1Jn. 3:2) — not purgatory, which suffering commences at death in order to enable souls to enter Heaven.

Secondly, RC (since EOs differ on what Tradition and Scripture teaches on this and some other subjects) Purgatory is not simply a place of obtaining forgiveness of sins by providing additional atonement (another issue), but of attaining to perfection of character:

Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on Purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ Who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (John Paul II, Audiences, July 21, 1999; cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis: DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio: DS 1820).

Catholic professor Peter Kreeft states,

"...we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults." Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224

Likewise RC apologist Jimmy Akin,

"The purpose of purgatory is to bring you up the level of spiritual excellence needed to experience the full-force presence of God." (Jimmy Akin, How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants).

For RC Purgatory flows from the premise expressed by Augustine who "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness" etc. (City of God XXI.24.) And thus by the close of the fourth century was taught "a place of purgation..from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord". For " they were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness." (Catholic Encyclopedia>Purgatory)

This itself is a result from the Catholic premise that justification is a process based upon actual sanctification via the act itself of baptism (so that the newly baptized would go straight into glory if they immediately died then, but not after their sin nature that remained manifested itself) vs. heart-purifying regenerating faith being counted for righteousness among the regenerate, but not as making one actually good enough in character to be with God.

While in Catholic theology man does not merit the grace by which process one is justified, yet the "the process of justification" means that it is on the basis of sanctification via baptism (by which one receives "sanctifying grace," having an "interior sanctifying quality") that one is justified by, and which "confers the right to heavenly glory." Thus it is held that newly baptized Catholics would go directly in heavenly glory if they died at that time, before committing sin. But since such soon manifest imperfection, then this premise of salvation via actual sanctification leads to the need for Purgatory in order to become good enough to actually be with God.

"This inner quality of righteousness and sanctity is universally termed 'sanctifying (or habitual) grace')." "this justification cannot, according to Christ's precept, be effected except at the fountain of regeneration, that is, by the baptism of water" "by which even an infant in receiving baptism is necessarily made just and pleasing to God," "by the grace of this sacrament the catechumen is freed from sin (original and personal) and its punishments, and is made a child of God." "whereby He makes us just, in so far as He bestows on us the gift of His grace which renovates the soul interiorly and adheres to it as the soul's own holiness (Trent, l. c., cap. vii)." The Council of Trent decreed that the essence of active justification comprises not only forgiveness of sin, but also "sanctification and renovation of the interior man by means of the voluntary acceptation of sanctifying grace and other supernatural gifts" (Trent, l. c., cap. vii)" "According to the Council of Trent sanctifying grace is not merely a formal cause, but "the only formal cause" (unica causa formalis) of our justification." For, "Justification is "considered as a state or habit (habitus justificationis), it denotes the continued possession of a quality inherent in the soul." (Catholic Encyclopedia > Justification) Thus one is "formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis)." - Catholic Encyclopedia > Sanctifying Grace: emp. mine

What this is means is that "by the grace of God" man, via the act of baptism - which produces its effects ex opere operato=by the act itself - (The Catholic Encyclopedia>Sacraments), the soul receives "sanctifying grace which renders men the adopted sons of God and confers the right to heavenly glory" (Catholic Encyclopedia > baptism) being actually made "just and pleasing to God."

While this magic act is appealing, and is set in contrast to a misleading characterization of sola fide (as if that simply meant believers were merely white-washed sinners), what it means is that souls are imagined to be actually good enough to be with God. Thus the innocence of baptism is not enough, but regeneration, however, while the latter does create a new heart rendering man a "new creature," (2Co. 5:17) yet his sinful nature remains, as the new convert will quickly realize.

Besides Scripture only teaching that believers go to Heaven wherever it manifestly describes their location after this life, among other problems of salvation via moral perfection ("by God's grace") means that since the so-called "good thief" of Luke 23 went to be with Christ in Paradise that day (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4) then somehow he attained to moral perfection in just a few hours on a cross. Likewise Abraham suddenly becaem good enough when he believed God's promise of innumerable descendants. (Gn. 15:6) And that since Paul confessed that he was imperfect yet would be with the Lord once absent from his earthly body (Phil 1:23; cf. 2 Cor. 5:8) then he neglected to mention his processing time in Purgatory. Likewise in telling the Thessalonians that if the Lord returned in their lifetime then all believers would henceforth with the Lord. (1 Ths. 4:17) How could they all be so good as to escape Purgatory?

In addition, the whole premise that suffering itself perfects a person is specious, since testing of character requires being able to choose btwn alternatives, and which this world provides. Thus it is only this world that Scripture peaks of here development of character, such as "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations." (1 Peter 1:6) The Lord Jesus, in being "made perfect" (Hebrews 2:10) as regards experientially being "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15) was subjected to this in the life.

Catholicism also fosters faith in one's own merit and that of Herself for salvation, including by such reactionary misleading statements as,

"nothing further is wanting to the justified [baptized and faithful], to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life." (Trent, Chapter XVI; The Sixth Session Decree on justification, 1547) Likewise Canon 32 teaches that if anyone says that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God does not truly merit eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself, let him be anathema.

There is a contextual sense in which works justify, meaning they justify one as being a believer as it did Abraham, having fruit that accompanies salvation (Rm 8:14; Heb. 6:9,10) and thus fulfilling the affirmation given thru imputed righteousness. (James 2:23; Gn. 15:6; Rm. 4:1ff) And God rewards the faith of believers as expressed in works by the Spirit, (Heb. 10:35) though man the only things man can - and must - claim any credit for is his disobedience, but as regards what obtains justification then it is effectual faith, not any moral merit.

45 posted on 07/27/2021 4:24:54 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save + be baptized + follow Him!)
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To: daniel1212
One might consider, given the Marxist/Communist ‘holy father’ Frankie ... that the Heavenly Father is sending a signal... However, so deeply entrenched is the tradition, it seems that only the return of Christ will breakthrough the bondage of man's traditions.

I pray for this nonsense of man's hubris to be ended sooner than later ... IF it be thy will oh Lord God.

I can almost hear old Luther saying ‘see, I told you so’!!! Course not being of the sect of Lutheranism, I do not vouch for their doctrine, only that strangely, and repeatedly I have read the savaging of Luther for having the nerve to question the god of Rome. After all it was our Lord and Savior that commanded ‘call NO man ‘father’ ... yet that is the traditions of men.

62 posted on 07/27/2021 10:07:33 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Psalm 2. Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?)
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To: daniel1212
Daniel - your posts contain non-biblical claptrap. you may think the voluminous posts convince people, but if anyone bothers to read the details, they are all nonsensical.

Firstly, let's look at your term "heresy" - you call the orthodox view heresy and that's an oxymoron (like your posts in general) - a heresy is belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine. -- net-net, your views are heresy, not orthodox

I said "one must be scrubbed clean of all sin in the final stage of sanctification. The sins were already forgiven. As usual, you make a strawman out of your own false reading

Secondly as clearly stated "The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ Who removes from them the remnants of imperfection" --> this is not a place

==========

The rest of your post is your standard bloviating strawman wherein you think that repeating your errors over and over again will make people think you know.

Sorry, your way may worked since Goebbels

63 posted on 07/28/2021 12:29:15 AM PDT by Cronos ( )
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