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The Very Short History of the Rapture
gizmodo ^ | 7/25/12 | Keith Veronese

Posted on 02/01/2021 2:35:55 AM PST by Cronos

We've all heard stories about the Rapture — when all the righteous people will be bodily lifted into Heaven, leaving everybody else to endure years of tribulation. It's a popular idea, that appears in loads of books as well as movies. But where did this bizarre idea come from?

It turns out the notion of the Rapture is pretty new — dating back less than 200 years. So who developed this doctrine, and how did it become so popular, almost overnight?

Where did all the people go? The best known treatment of the Rapture is probably Jerry Jenkins and Tim LaHaye's Left Behind book and movie series. The Left Behind tie-in movies feature a wide-eyed Kirk Cameron leading people through a world that looks like a PG-rated issue of Garth Ennis' Crossed. Planes crash into the ground, and cars that are suddenly missing their drivers careen into each other, as a chosen group of people are "raptured" and disappear from the Earth, leaving the rest of the world to fend for themselves.

Depending on which theologian you speak to, only one or two passages from Judeo-Christian religious texts make reference to an event akin to what is portrayed as the Rapture, leaving the idea with very little Biblical support. Instead, most of the lore surrounding the Rapture originates with two people in the early 19th Century: a teenage girl living in Scotland, and a London-born preacher.

Margaret McDonald, a fifteen-year-old girl living in Scotland, experienced a "vision" of the end of the world in 1820. In McDonald's vision, the chosen few are saved from a "purifying" fire. This is not exactly the disappearance in the middle of the day that popular culture views as the Rapture, but an early prototype. Not everyone leapt to follow her view — and in fact, several contemporary religious leaders deemed her visions demonic.

Meanwhile, London-born evangelist John Darby and members of his flock, the Irish-born Plymouth Brethren, popularized and molded the idea of Judeo-Christians being removed from the Earth, prior to an unknown period of strife. But McDonald had no influence on Darby's views, since Darby apparently espoused this idea as early as 1827. But McDonald's visions, and their later publication, no doubt further popularized the idea of the Rapture in Europe.

Popping up in publication Darby traveled to North America on several occasions during the mid-19th Century, teaching his theory of the Rapture. On one of these trips, Darby met with James Brookes, a prominent preacher and writer in Missouri — and, most importantly, the mentor of Cyrus Ingerson Scofield.

Scofield, influenced by Darby's teachings via his mentor, published the Scofield Reference Bible in 1909. The Scofield Reference Bible went on to become one of the best selling religious texts of the early 20th Century, one that continues to sell extremely well in the United Kingdom. Scofield's text displays his personal notes and explanations right next to the King James translation of the Judeo-Christian Bible. The proximity of Scofield's notes to the religious text no doubt lent credence to his words, especially in a world lacking widespread communication systems. As individuals emigrated to the United States in the early 20th Century, this helped spread the belief that Darby had already put in place, during his visits to North America.

Rapture roulette At the moment, Eastern Orthodox churches, many branches of Protestantism, the Anglican Church, and the Catholic Church do not believe in the Rapture.

Amongst those who do believe in the Rapture, meanwhile, the exact details of the event remain quite a mystery. But some leaders do go into specifics — even setting exact dates when the Rapture will happen.

Three different highly publicized dates came and went in the 1990s, but the most recent failed predictions happened just last year. Harold Camping made his second and third attempts to fix a date on the rapture after his humbling announcement of the "confirmed" date of September 6, 1994.

Camping announced May 21, 2011 as the date for the disappearance of the worthy — but after the date passed, he quickly came back and announced the date of October 21, 2011 as the "true" date. Camping predicted a series of earthquakes beginning in New Zealand, to accompany these dates. The 89-year-old Camping and his followers spent $100 million publicizing these two dates in a media campaign.

After nether date turned out to be accurate, many of Camping's followers felt cheated, especially people who'd put their lives on hold for years. This article, checking in on Camping's followers a year later, is compelling but depressing reading. One engineer spent most of his retirement savings on publicizing Camping's predictions, only to see them fail to materialize. Another former believer in Camping told the reporter, "I think I was part of a cult."


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History
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To: HighSierra5; aces; tired&retired
True, HighSierra - the pre-trib rap "left behind" aint' right with what Jesus preached

[1] And Jesus being come out of the temple, went away. And his disciples came to shew him the buildings of the temple. [2] And he answering, said to them: Do you see all these things? Amen I say to you there shall not be left here a stone upon a stone that shall not be destroyed. [3] And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world? [4] And Jesus answering, said to them: Take heed that no man seduce you: [5] For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many.

[6] And you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places: [8] Now all these are the beginnings of sorrows. [9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name's sake. [10] And then shall many be scandalized: and shall betray one another: and shall hate one another.

[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many. [12] And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold. [13] But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. [14] And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come. [15] When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.

[16] Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains: [17] And he that is on the housetop, let him not come down to take any thing out of his house: [18] And he that is in the field, let him not go back to take his coat. [19] And woe to them that are with child, and that give suck in those days. [20] But pray that your flight be not in the winter, or on the sabbath.

[21] For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be. [22] And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened. [23] Then if any man shall say to you: Lo here is Christ, or there, do not believe him. [24] For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. [25] Behold I have told it to you, beforehand.

[26] If therefore they shall say to you: Behold he is in the desert, go ye not out: Behold he is in the closets, believe it not. [27] For as lightning cometh out of the east, and appeareth even into the west: so shall the coming of the Son of man be. [28] Wheresoever the body shall be, there shall the eagles also be gathered together. [29] And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.

[31] And he shall send his angels with a trumpet, and a great voice: and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them. [32] And from the fig tree learn a parable: When the branch thereof is now tender, and the leaves come forth, you know that summer is nigh. [33] So you also, when you shall see all these things, know ye that it is nigh, even at the doors. [34] Amen I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. [35] Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass.

In this Jesus answers two questions "When will the 2nd temple be destroyed"

The opening verses of the Olivet discourse set the scene for this - they left the temple and His disciples ask him about the temple

Jesus answer Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down - this was done by the Roman legions under Titus and is the final fulfilment of Micha 3:12

Therefore, because of you,
Zion shall be plowed like a field,
and Jerusalem reduced to rubble,
And the mount of the temple
to a forest ridge.
The Olivet discourse then talks about the 8 signs that Jesus said would lead to the Temple's destruction that were important for the Apostles to recognize
  1. Sign 1: false messiahs - Matt 24:4-5 -- Up to 70 AD there were several supposed messiahs in Judea who led armies against the legions. They were killed with their followers. At the time of the Jewish captivity, there were many leaders who declared themselves to be Christs (Messiahs), so that while the Romans were actually besiegin them, there were three factions within - and Joseph mentions them as "Imposters and deceivers persuaded the multitude to follow them into the wilderness, and pretended that they would exhibit manifest wonders and signs that should be performed by the providence of God. And many that were prevailed on by them suffered the punishments of their folly""

  2. Sign 2: Wars You will hear of wars and rumors of wars Matt 24:6 - there was civil war in Rome itself

  3. Sign 3: famines - during the war the Jews in Jerusalem underwent a severe famine - St. Paul wrote about it in his letter to the Corinthians (2 Cor 8)

  4. Sign 4: earthquakes erupted frequently - the city of Colossae was destroyed in an earthquake in the 50s. And Pompeii had one in 63 AD (the same Pompeii that was destroyed by volcano in 79 AD)

  5. sign 5: persecution - Matthew 24:9 - Nero's persecution killed Peter and Paul

  6. Sign 6: Apostasy - Matthew 24:10-12 - this is reflected in Revelations 2 about the Nicolaitians

  7. Sign 7 - the gospel worldwide. What did Paul say in Rom 1:8? First, I give thanks[f] to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world and in Col 1:5-6 First, I give thanks[f] to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world in Paul's mind there was no doubt that the gospel had gone out into the whole world Clement wrote in 73 AD that Peter and Paul had been martyred, but not before they "taught righteousness to the whole world, and they came to the extreme limit of the west" -- the word used for "world" is oikoumene - which specifically means the civilized world i.e. the Roman Empire - the Olivet discourse does not use the world "Kosmos" that designates the entire earth.

    Kosmos in Matt 24:21 From the beginning of the world (kosmos) until now"

  8. Sign 8: Daniel's desolating sacrilege. Matt 24:15-19. Note that the Sanhedrin believed that this had been fulfilled in 167 BC, but that did not meet Daniel's prophecy of 3.5 years

    Jesus then mentions in 24:21 the Great Tribulation - which is for the Jesus-movement Jews.

    There has never been, nor will there ever be anything rivaling it. The Church was close to being smothered in its cradle if Nero continued and the Jerusalem Christians had not escaped to Pella - this was a tiny community, primarily Jewish and was attacked by both the Roman authorities AND the Jewish authorities. That WAS the great tribulation

THEN, in Matt 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved - This is apocalyptic language exactly referring to Isaiah 13:10-13 The stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising and the moon will not shed its light... I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place" - Jesus is foretelling the overthrow of nero and the Sanhedrin. He draws a parallel between the shaking of Babylon and the shaking of Jerusalem (and that's the basis of John's vision in the book of revelations)

This is also reflected in Haggai 2:6-7 Thus says that Lord of hosts: Once again, in a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land; and I will shake all nations, so that the treasures of all nations shall come in, and I will fill this house with splendor, says the Lord of hosts

This splendor is Christ and the house is the Church. The Sanhedrin was uprooted forever, never to be validly re-established again.

21 posted on 02/01/2021 3:31:12 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos

Why did Jesus teach everything He did?

Follow His teachings and you will know the answers. Invite the Holy Spirit into you and follow the changes in your soul.

Jesus is my Savior as He taught me how to swim like Him. Not because He can pluck me from drowning when I die.


22 posted on 02/01/2021 3:35:20 AM PST by tired&retired (Blessings )
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To: Cronos

All those words and not one word of analysis of the text.


23 posted on 02/01/2021 3:41:15 AM PST by lurk ( )
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To: tired&retired

The rapture is the ultimate expression of America white privilege. Thankfully this misguided view of scripture appears to be declining. There are still some late night preachers with their diagrams and flow charts torturing the texts for cash. It reminds me of what L.B.J. said “the easiest way to pick someone’s pocket is to make them feel special.” I grew up in the rapture mania era of Tim LaHaye and even as as teen I had my doubts. Once sitting in church I heard a pastor say that the fact the church wasn’t mentioned after a certain chapter in Revelation proved the rapture. Wow, I thought, since when do we create doctrine from what the Bible doesn’t mention. I was comforted by the fact that for eighteen hundred years the church agreed with me. Keep it simple, it’s not about you.
https://youtu.be/XqjS6jjKZSs


24 posted on 02/01/2021 3:43:39 AM PST by Babba Gi (It’s Not About You)
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To: lurk
True

let's look at the text though

1 Thess 4:13-17 or rather the whole 1 Thess 4

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep [k]in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [l]and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [n]and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
And very clearly in verse 7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto sanctification.

What does this actually teach?

St. Paul wrote to the Thessalnian Christians because they were worried about those who died before Christ's return. Many in the ancient world believed that a person simply ceased to exist upon death.

These was a rumor in Thessalonica at the time Paul wrote the letter that the dead Christians had lost out on any chance of a physical resurrection. St.Paul assures them that it was not so. In fact, "the dead in Christ will rise first" to meet Christ

Rapturists make the mistake of thinking "meet the Lord in the air" is about Christ not actually touching the earth.

The word St. Paul uses for meeting the Lord "in the air" is aer the Greek word for atmosphere

This SAME word is used in Ephesians 2:2

And you [a]were dead [b]in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the [c]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
yet no one would claim that, because of this word, Satan wouldn't influence people on the earth

A consistent rapturist reading of this wod here would mean that only airplane passengers are influenced by Satan's power

NO, when Christ returns to the earth's atmosphere, He has returned to earth

Rapturists trying to point to the "coming in the clouds" -- but this ignores the symbol of divinity in the clouds

The Bible uses three Greek words interchangeably

  1. parousia - coming
  2. epiphaneia appearing
  3. apokalupsis revelation

Rapturists think that there is a different usage for each, but that is false - parousia is not used just for some fake "rapture" and the others for the 2nd coming

Paul doesn't mention this 19th century rapture idea as occuring before the appearance of the antichrist and before the second coming is simple: it never entered into his mind that anyone would believe Christ would rapture His Church before the final Eschaton

In the apocalypse, that is referred to as the battle with Gog and Magog, Christians will participate in that confrontation because there will be no secret rapture before it. Our comfort rests in Him who will emerge from that confrontation as the Victor.

THAT is the reassurance Paul offers, not the promise of an escape from the great Tribulation.

25 posted on 02/01/2021 3:45:14 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Babba Gi; tired&retired; aces
Baba Gi
grew up in the rapture mania era of Tim LaHaye and even as as teen I had my doubts. Once sitting in church I heard a pastor say that the fact the church wasn’t mentioned after a certain chapter in Revelation proved the rapture. Wow, I thought, since when do we create doctrine from what the Bible doesn’t mention. I was comforted by the fact that for eighteen hundred years the church agreed with me.

Very well written

There have been umpteen pre-tribulation rapture predictions by con-men and those who fall for it don't want to read what Christ actually said

26 posted on 02/01/2021 3:47:26 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos

I go to a large church and I think that a lot of the people, and the pastors, have various beliefs on the end times. The one pastor that I am closest to points out the scriptures that argue against the rapture.

In summary he will say something like “It is in rare cases where God has taken His chosen people out of the hardships of life. Instead, He places them there to be a guide, encouragement, and servant - and pointing to God and Jesus as their Savior to those also in need. Why would the end times be any different?”


27 posted on 02/01/2021 3:47:32 AM PST by 21twelve (Ever Vigilant. Never Fearful!)
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To: aces; tired&retired
Darby invented the 19th century rapture philosophy

In 1830 Darby met fifteen-year-old Mararet MacDonald, who claimed to have had a private revelation of a secret rapture that would occur shortly

flash alert -- the "secret rapture" didn't occur in 1830 nor in 1870 nor in 1914 nor in 2012 -- but the gullible who persist in believing in the 19thc century creation of secret pre-Trib rapture keep falling for it
Let's go through all of the hilarious rapture fails

Net - net, this fake 19th century philosophy has been shown to be continuously failing and still rapturists follow it - adding on a few more years each time they fail

28 posted on 02/01/2021 3:48:02 AM PST by Cronos
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To: spacejunkie2001

How is believing in the Rapture wicked? This is not a salvation issue, so it can be open for discussion and interpretation (in context of course).
For example: non Rapture believers can never explain the meaning of 1 Thes 4:17.


29 posted on 02/01/2021 3:48:13 AM PST by GMThrust
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To: 21twelve

Correct. We are to pick up our cross and endure to the end


30 posted on 02/01/2021 3:48:48 AM PST by Cronos
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To: GMThrust
The Rapture is wicked because it denies what Jesus Himself said. It was formulated by a con-man, Darby and perpetuated by con-men like Harold Camping

1 Thes 4:17 has nothing to do with the pre-trib rapture

1 Thess 4:13-17 or rather the whole 1 Thess 4

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep [k]in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [l]and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [n]and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
And very clearly in verse 7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto sanctification.

What does this actually teach?

St. Paul wrote to the Thessalnian Christians because they were worried about those who died before Christ's return. Many in the ancient world believed that a person simply ceased to exist upon death.

These was a rumor in Thessalonica at the time Paul wrote the letter that the dead Christians had lost out on any chance of a physical resurrection. St.Paul assures them that it was not so. In fact, "the dead in Christ will rise first" to meet Christ

Rapturists make the mistake of thinking "meet the Lord in the air" is about Christ not actually touching the earth.

The word St. Paul uses for meeting the Lord "in the air" is aer the Greek word for atmosphere

This SAME word is used in Ephesians 2:2

And you [a]were dead [b]in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the [c]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
yet no one would claim that, because of this word, Satan wouldn't influence people on the earth

A consistent rapturist reading of this wod here would mean that only airplane passengers are influenced by Satan's power

NO, when Christ returns to the earth's atmosphere, He has returned to earth

>Rapturists trying to point to the "coming in the clouds" -- but this ignores the symbol of divinity in the clouds

The Bible uses three Greek words interchangeably

  1. parousia - coming
  2. epiphaneia appearing
  3. apokalupsis revelation

Rapturists think that there is a different usage for each, but that is false - parousia is not used just for some fake "rapture" and the others for the 2nd coming

Paul doesn't mention this 19th century rapture idea as occuring before the appearance of the antichrist and before the second coming is simple: it never entered into his mind that anyone would believe Christ would rapture His Church before the final Eschaton

In the apocalypse, that is referred to as the battle with Gog and Magog, Christians will participate in that confrontation because there will be no secret rapture before it. Our comfort rests in Him who will emerge from that confrontation as the Victor.

THAT is the reassurance Paul offers, not the promise of an escape from the great Tribulation.

31 posted on 02/01/2021 3:50:32 AM PST by Cronos
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To: tired&retired

That is referring to the Second coming, (which becomes clear once you continue reading the rest of the chapter), not the Rapture.


32 posted on 02/01/2021 3:51:45 AM PST by GMThrust
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To: Cronos
The "rapture" of believing saints is real. It's NOT what is mistakenly called the "pre-tribulation" rapture.

Christ will appear in the same manner as he left -- in the clouds. His return is captured in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, Luke 21:25-28.

This occurs after the approximately 3.5 years of the anti-christ's reign, the tribulation of the saints, culminating in "great tribulation". (It is inaccurate and unbiblical to refer to Daniel's 70th week as the "tribulation". The last half of that period of 7 years, after the saints have been taken up, is the pouring out of God's wrath in seven vial judgments.)

For an entertaining and informative Wittenberger documentary on the post-tribulation, pre-wrath rapture of the saints I highly recommend this video: After the Tribulation.

33 posted on 02/01/2021 3:53:48 AM PST by nonsporting (The left is profoundly evil)
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To: Cronos

The only way to reject Christ is to not believe in who he was and is and what he did and does for us (you know, the Good News (= Gospel)).
Paul tells us what the Gospel is in 1 Cor 15:1-4. That’s it, period. The rest is all doctrine.


34 posted on 02/01/2021 3:57:54 AM PST by GMThrust
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To: tired&retired

Amen


35 posted on 02/01/2021 3:59:03 AM PST by GMThrust
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To: Cronos

Is the Qult pushing more falsity here again?
Just ask in’.


36 posted on 02/01/2021 4:00:39 AM PST by romanesq (TRUSTY THE PLAN! So ChiCom Joe is the Plan? Que magnificent! /s 👹.)
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To: nonsporting
Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, Luke 21:25-28.

And what does that actually read?

[29] And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.

And In this Jesus answers two questions "When will the 2nd temple be destroyed"

The opening verses of the Olivet discourse set the scene for this - they left the temple and His disciples ask him about the temple

Jesus answer Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down - this was done by the Roman legions under Titus and is the final fulfilment of Micha 3:12

Therefore, because of you,
Zion shall be plowed like a field,
and Jerusalem reduced to rubble,
And the mount of the temple
to a forest ridge.
The Olivet discourse then talks about the 8 signs that Jesus said would lead to the Temple's destruction that were important for the Apostles to recognize
  1. Sign 1: false messiahs - Matt 24:4-5 -- Up to 70 AD there were several supposed messiahs in Judea who led armies against the legions. They were killed with their followers. At the time of the Jewish captivity, there were many leaders who declared themselves to be Christs (Messiahs), so that while the Romans were actually besiegin them, there were three factions within - and Joseph mentions them as "Imposters and deceivers persuaded the multitude to follow them into the wilderness, and pretended that they would exhibit manifest wonders and signs that should be performed by the providence of God. And many that were prevailed on by them suffered the punishments of their folly""

  2. Sign 2: Wars You will hear of wars and rumors of wars Matt 24:6 - there was civil war in Rome itself

  3. Sign 3: famines - during the war the Jews in Jerusalem underwent a severe famine - St. Paul wrote about it in his letter to the Corinthians (2 Cor 8)

  4. Sign 4: earthquakes erupted frequently - the city of Colossae was destroyed in an earthquake in the 50s. And Pompeii had one in 63 AD (the same Pompeii that was destroyed by volcano in 79 AD)

  5. sign 5: persecution - Matthew 24:9 - Nero's persecution killed Peter and Paul

  6. Sign 6: Apostasy - Matthew 24:10-12 - this is reflected in Revelations 2 about the Nicolaitians

  7. Sign 7 - the gospel worldwide. What did Paul say in Rom 1:8? First, I give thanks[f] to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world and in Col 1:5-6 First, I give thanks[f] to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world in Paul's mind there was no doubt that the gospel had gone out into the whole world Clement wrote in 73 AD that Peter and Paul had been martyred, but not before they "taught righteousness to the whole world, and they came to the extreme limit of the west" -- the word used for "world" is oikoumene - which specifically means the civilized world i.e. the Roman Empire - the Olivet discourse does not use the world "Kosmos" that designates the entire earth.

    Kosmos in Matt 24:21 From the beginning of the world (kosmos) until now"

  8. Sign 8: Daniel's desolating sacrilege. Matt 24:15-19. Note that the Sanhedrin believed that this had been fulfilled in 167 BC, but that did not meet Daniel's prophecy of 3.5 years

    Jesus then mentions in 24:21 the Great Tribulation - which is for the Jesus-movement Jews.

    There has never been, nor will there ever be anything rivaling it. The Church was close to being smothered in its cradle if Nero continued and the Jerusalem Christians had not escaped to Pella - this was a tiny community, primarily Jewish and was attacked by both the Roman authorities AND the Jewish authorities. That WAS the great tribulation

THEN, in Matt 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved - This is apocalyptic language exactly referring to Isaiah 13:10-13 The stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising and the moon will not shed its light... I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place" - Jesus is foretelling the overthrow of nero and the Sanhedrin. He draws a parallel between the shaking of Babylon and the shaking of Jerusalem (and that's the basis of John's vision in the book of revelations)

This is also reflected in Haggai 2:6-7 Thus says that Lord of hosts: Once again, in a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land; and I will shake all nations, so that the treasures of all nations shall come in, and I will fill this house with splendor, says the Lord of hosts

This splendor is Christ and the house is the Church. The Sanhedrin was uprooted forever, never to be validly re-established again.

Now to Matt 24:30-31 Then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds on heaven with power and great glory; and He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other -- and on reading this with Daniel we have


37 posted on 02/01/2021 4:05:21 AM PST by Cronos
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To: nonsporting
Mara Bar Searpion, a pagan Syrian Gentile who wrote a letter to his son around 73 AD wrote "What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged"

Only God could make the type of prediction that Jesus made and have it come true. Consider how while Jerusalem was still standing,Jesus foretold what would befall it from the hand of hte empire. At that time there were no armies around Jerusalem encompassing and besieging it for the siege began three decades after His death

Finally the fig tree - "you know that He is near, at the very gates." - the generation of the fig tree was the people who lived to see the destruction in 70 AD

That is why the Gospel according to john does not include the Olivet discourse because revelations was written before 67 AD but the gospel according to john was written after 70 AD

38 posted on 02/01/2021 4:05:35 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos

Here is a link to

THE STORY OF SCOFIELD’S LIFE

by

EMMA MOORE WESTON

Condensed from J. M. Canfield’s book

“The Incredible Scofield”

“In 1833, Elias and Abigail Scofield moved to Lenawee County, Michigan to help her father operate a sawmill on the Raisin River. Their home was on a cleared farm along the river.

They had four daughters from three to seventeen years of age. Their last child, Cyrus Ingerson Scofield, was born August 19, 1843. His mother died three months later. Not long after, Elias married again.

The older sisters soon married. Emeline married Sylvester V. Papin, from a prominent French family of St. Louis, March 19,1850. He was a law student and became a clerk in the City Assessor’s office and later became head of the department. In 1855, Laura married a young dentist, William Eames. They moved to Lebanon, Tennessee. Cyrus’s sister, Victorine, was listed in the 1860 Census in Tennessee, as living with Laura and William.

Cyrus was not listed in the census records in either state. By April 1861, when Fort Sumter was fired upon, Cyrus was visiting his sisters in Tennessee. He never returned to Michigan.

Though not yet eighteen, Cyrus gave his age as twenty-one and enlisted in the Seventh Regiment of the Tennessee Infantry. In April 1862, he was listed as a patient in a hospital in Richmond, Virginia. There was no mention of a wound, so he may have become ill.

In July, he wrote to the Confederate Secretary of War asking for exemption from further duty stating that he was a minor and a citizen of Michigan. He also claimed that he had been visiting his sister in Tennessee when he enlisted, that he had never voted in the South and that his health was broken by exposure and battle fatigue. He promised that in a short time he would enter the militia in Tennessee.

On September 5, 1862, Cyrus was with the Tennessee Regiment when they crossed the Potomac during heavy fighting. A discharge was issued for Private Scofield in 1862 after one year of service. There is no definite record of where he was for the next four years.

Among the refugees forced out of the South by the war were the Lames family and Victorine Scofield. They moved to St. Louis, Missouri in 1863 where Sylvester Papin helped Lames open a dentistry office. Victorine married and settled there so that was also the place Cyrus settled. Sylvester placed Cyrus in his office in the Assessor’s Department and directed his training in law.

While working in this office, Cyrus studied to become familiar with the law regarding land grants, titles, and deeds. He got his law education on the job rather than in school. His name is listed in connection with a case in Circuit Court of St. Louis County, December term, 1866. This is the first definite date that appears in Cyrus’s life after the Civil War.. .” . .

https://www.gospeltruth.net/scofield.htm


39 posted on 02/01/2021 4:07:31 AM PST by Norski (Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?)
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To: Cronos

First, I don’t agree that it is denying what Christ said, second, you still haven’t explained what 1 Thes 4:13-17 means. When I read those verses I see in 14 a confirmation of 1 Cor 15:1-4, and in 15 we are told those who are still alive will not precede those who have died. Once that occurs, then in 17 those who are ALIVE will be caught up together in the clouds to meet Christ.
That can’t be more clear to me what that means.
Now the discussion is when-Pre, mid or post.


40 posted on 02/01/2021 4:10:19 AM PST by GMThrust
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