Justin Welby: I Don’t Mind if Anglicans Convert to Catholicism

The Catholic Herald (UK) ^ | 1/24/19 | Mark Greaves

[marshmallow]

Archbishop Justin Welby said Rome was 'such a source of inspiration'

The Archbishop of Canterbury has said he is perfectly happy to see Anglicans convert to Catholicism.

In an interview with The Spectator, Archbishop Justin Welby was asked about the number of Anglican clergy becoming Catholic. Some estimates, the article said, suggested that one in 10 Catholic priests in England and Wales were former Anglican vicars.

“Who cares?” Archbishop Welby replied. “I don’t mind about all that. Particularly if people go to Rome, which is such a source of inspiration.”

He explained: “I had an email from a very old friend, an Anglican priest who has decided to go to Rome. I wrote back saying: how wonderful! As long as you are following your vocation, you are following Christ. It’s just wonderful.

“What we need is for people to be disciples of Jesus Christ. I don’t really care whether it’s the Church of England or Rome or the Orthodox or Pentecostals or the Lutherans or Baptists. They are faithful disciples of Christ,” he said.

Archbishop Welby has long been seen as sympathetic to Catholicism. His spiritual director is Fr Nicolas Buttet, a Swiss Catholic priest who is founder of the Eucharistein Fraternity. The Anglican leader has described himself as a “spiritual magpie”: he speaks in tongues, but also spends time silently praying before the Eucharist and has said his prayer life owes much to St Ignatius of Loyola and the Benedictines.

In the interview, Archbishop Welby described Cardinal Vincent Nichols of Westminster as a “very close” friend. “We see each other regularly, we pray together, we talk together,” he said.

[kosciusko51]

That is a Catholic understanding, not that the fruits gain salvation, but faith in Jesus, that compels one to do works that honor and glorify Him, out of love of Him and neighbor

This is also the understanding of most Protestants.

[imardmd1]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a RCC follower is taught that faith includes works. But I know for sure they commend striving for supererogative works (click here) by which one might escape or be only lightly touched by Purgatory, and go to Heaven right away after physical death as a "Saint."

With a Catholic, it looks like the Blood of Christ does not really wash one's heart clean (as in 1 Jn. 1:9).

Correct me if I am wrong in this, aMPU.

[MHGinTN]

You have exposed the key to discerning the Catholic error regarding works and salvation by the Grace of God in Christ Jesus. The catholiciism notion of purgatory is an insult to the Cross and an indication of ego not submitted to Whom God has sent. The error is so fundamental that a devout Carholic cannot see it unless The Holy Spirit opens it up to the catholiciism adherent..

[metmom]

Not ONE Catholic believes that Faith and works gives us salvation. That is utterly wrong and if anyone within or outside the Church has such opinions they should be told it is anathema.

You've interviewed all 1.2 billion of them?

Council of Trent, eh?

Check your church laws that were established at Trent.

http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm

Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema. A couple more laws that you might want to consider:

Canon 19.If anyone says that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel, that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor forbidden, but free; or that the ten commandments in no way pertain to Christians, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 27. If anyone says that there is no mortal sin except that of unbelief, or that grace once received is not lost through any other sin however grievous and enormous except by that of unbelief, let him be anathema.

If what you claim is true, there would not be the persistent emphasis on works in Catholicism and Catholics would quit quoting James 2.

[daniel1212]

Sigh, Catholics DO entrust themselves to Christ alone for Salvation. We do not believe that works or rituals save you, Christ saves you. Salvation as taught by the Church comes from Christ's sacrifice. God's Grace saves us, we cannot save ourselves. THAT is Church teaching...Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross was super-sufficient for our salvation. Salvation comes from Christ’s sacrifice. We cannot save ourselves — our works cannot provide us salvation, not one bit, not a little bit — and that is Church teaching.

Which is just as misleading as when the Mormons say the like, for what it really means is that rather than the unGoldy being justified by regenerating, heart-purifying effectual obedient faith being counted for righteousness, whereby one is made "accepted in the Beloved" and made to sit with Him in Heaven (Eph. 1:6; 2:6) on His account - with obedience evidencing and justifying that one is a saved soul (Heb. 6:9,10) -

Instead what salvation by the grace of God means in R. Catholicism is the soul is "formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis),” (Catholic Encyclopedia>Sanctifying Grace) via act itself (ex opere operato) of baptism, which renders a person good enough to be with God at that time.

However, since the carnal nature remains and few successfully attain to complete victory over any attachment to sin and attain to perfection of character, then most baptized souls are sent to Roman Catholic (EOs trend to reject Rome's) Purgatory to endure purifying torments to atone for sins they sufficiently failed to provide for while on earth, and become good enough to enter glory.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states that St. Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness" etc. (City of God XXI.24.)

And thus by the close of the fourth century was taught "a place of purgation..from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord". For " they were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness".

One "cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested." -Catholic Encyclopedia>Purgatory.

"Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected." - John Paul II, Audiences, 1999.

"The purpose of purgatory is to bring you up the level of spiritual excellence needed to experience the full-force presence of God." ( Jimmy Akin, How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants).

Likewise Catholic professor Peter Kreeft states, "...we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults." Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224

However, wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord,” though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. (Phil. 3:7f)

And the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

Purgatory is thus based upon a false premise, that of the need for perfection of character (if by grace) in order to be with God, versus penitent faith which appropriates justification, which purifies the heart (Acts 15:9) and is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:5) and renders one accepted in the Beloved (on His account) and positionally seated together with their Lord in Heaven, (Ephesians 1:6; 2:6) from where they await the Lord's return and His final subduing of our "vile body," that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body," (Philippians 3:21) and which is the only transformative change after this life that the Scriptures speak of.

However, this saving justifying faith, is a faith which effects obedience by the Spirit, in word and in deed, in heart and in life, whereby "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, (Romans 8:4) insofar as we do. And since faith and works go together like light and heat, sometimes they are used interchangeably as to what they effect. And which obedience includes penitent confession when convicted of not pleasing the Object of his faith for salvation, the risen Lord Jesus.

The appeal to the believer is to produce fruit consistent with faith, as a consequence of being accepted in the Beloved (on His account), to be practically (in heart and deed) as they are positionally in Christ, to be as much conformed to the Lord Jesus in this life as we can be, and will be in the resurrection. (Philippians 3:7-21)

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Galatians 5:25)

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. (Colossians 3:1-4)

But which progressive practical sanctification is not the cause of the sinner's justification and acceptance in Christ, but testifies to such being a believer, evidencing "things which accompany salvation," (Hebrews 6:9) and fit to be rewarded. (Revelation 3:4) For this faith, as manifested in said obedience, God will recompense (Hebrews 10:35) under grace, even though it is God who motivates and enables all obedience, (Philippians 1:12,13) while the only thing we can and must take credit for it our disobedience.

The Council of Trent states: "We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For 'if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,' as the apostle says, 'grace is no more grace' [Rom. 11:6]" (Decree on Justification 8). In fact, the Council of Trent condemned anyone who taught that we can save ourselves or who taught even that God helps (not leads) us do what we could do for ourselves. God does it all -- all the saving, the salvation is from Christ's sacrifice on the Cross

Actually, Trent here is referring to initial justification, via baptism, while it also conveys that by the grace of God one actually merits (the gift of) eternal life.

While as explained above, God does reward faith (though it, and the works of it, are all of God for which man can take no credit for), the nature of man presumes that somehow his works to some degree with make him good enough to be with God, with some mercy thrown in, and which Trent fosters with its emphasis on merit. Tell me how the average Catholic understands this:

Regarding those who cooperated with grace, Trent concludes that,

"nothing further is wanting to the justified [baptized and faithful], to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life." (Trent, Chapter XVI; The Sixth Session Decree on justification, 1547)

Canon 32 similarly states,

"If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema." (Trent, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 32. Also see The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom, Grand Rapids: Baker, 1919 ed., Decree on Justification, Chapters V, VI, VII, X, XIV, XV, XVI) (emphasis mine)

Shortened, this teaches, "If anyone says that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God does not truly merit eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself, let him be anathema."

Which means in a few hours or less the contrite criminal on the cross became good enough to be with God, as were all the believers in the 1st century churches whom Paul assured would be "forever with the Lord" ) if he returned in their lifetime (1Thes. 4:17) or at death.

If one actually READ Galatians instead of parroting mindlessly after one's handlers, one would see that the 'works' referred to by Paul are, ta-da works of the law, given to Abraham -- Paul is very clear on that. INDEED, all of Galatians , in Chapter 4 goes on about "servituded to the law" OF Abraham, the Mosaic code which is the "works" that Paul refers to.

Rather instead of parroting mindlessly after one's handlers, a actual study of the texts that 'works' referred to by Paul are not works of the law given to Abraham, for he was not under the law but was justified by faith.

How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. (Romans 4:10. KJV)

Moreover, negation of acceptance by God by keeping the law is not restricted to that system, but encompasses all systems of justification by actually truly meriting it by doing enough good, for the law represents the epitome of such systems:

Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. (Galatians 3:21-22. KJV)

It is heart-purifying regenerating faith that is counted for righteousness, and which effects obedience by the Spirit, working to fulfil the righteousness of the law, (Rm 8:4,14) which will justify that one is a believer, (Rm. 2:13)

The cause and the effect are not to be confused, although as in the case of forgiveness and healing in Mark 2:1-12 the two can be used interchangeably, since one results in the other.

Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? (Mark 2:9. KJV)

Likewise, those who believe are promised eternal life (Jn. 3:36) as well as those who obey, (Hebrews 5:9) but it is not the obedient effect of faith that appropriates justification whereby one is accepted in the Beloved, by God-given and enabled repentant faith.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5. KJV)

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43. KJV)

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:7-9. KJV)

Thanks be to God.

And since faith saves, thus believers are warned against drawing back in unbelief:

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (Hebrews 3:12,14. KJV)

[daniel1212]

Protestants are an umbrella term — it contains devout groups like the LCMS, Southern Baptist etc. and wack-a-doodle non-Christians like the ECUSA etc. Let’s not use the term “Protestant” anymore as the theology can be so wide.

Did you actually say that?! You have just impugned 1 million, 400,000, 530 Catholic posts!

[Buckeye McFrog]

Most of them who make their way bring wives and children along BTW.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“but I think a RCC follower is taught that faith includes works”

Well, sort of.... but that misses the teaching that salvation is found through the church and it’s resacrificing Christ to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

There is the mystical belief it is literally the body and blood, can be worshipped, and must be eaten to have eternal life.

There are some biblical teachings within Roman Catholicism, but it is what is added, often from pagan religions, and what is not taught that fails to teach the Gospel of Grace that saves.

Roman Catholicism teaches you cannot know you have salvation until after death. Just ask one here, if they know they are saved.

Best,

PS - metmom ‘s post here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3722704/posts?page=24#24

Demonstrates Trent did not teach salvation comes by faith alone.

[Cronos]

Perhaps. However the fact is that you don't share the same beliefs as the Oneness Pentecostals with regards to the Trinity, you don't share the same beliefs with the Lutherans with regards to Baptism and the True Presence in the Eucharist

Clubbing you together with them is as silly as saying "white people culture" when there are multiple different cultures.

[Cronos]

Hardly. It’s probably as similar as your beliefs as to Mormons with regards to the “great falling away”

[Cronos]

what salvation means in Christianity, of which the One Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church (Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental, Assyrian) have believed since apostolic times is simple - Salvation comes from Christ alone.

The rest of that is what you excerpted from various places and is no different from what your Mormons say about us as well.

[Cronos]

purgatory as clearly defined by the Church and affirmed in the books of the Bible is the final stage of sanctification in the blood of Christ. Purgatory is not a chance for saving yourself etc. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The tradition of the Apostles, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come

This may not be what the Watchtower tells one too, but it is what Christ teaches us - that sin cannot stand in the presence of God and that God loves us all and that we are sanctified and purified in the blood of the Christ

[Cronos]

I would suggest not parroting what you may have read by various televangelists or the Watchtower

[Cronos]

About as much as you may have interviewed the 1.5 billion with regards to your blanket statements.

However the fact remains that you have posted one statement that it is not sole fide for justification. This is quite different from sole fide for salvation. Salvation comes from Christ alone and you are justified from this by the means that Christ tells us

[Cronos]

very good - as you see we have a lot more in common than one might otherwise suppose. However I do object to the term “Protestant” as it encompasses so many varieties of opposing beliefs that it is not sensible to use it

[RKV]

Nope. Sorry.

[dfwgator]

Now if only Bergoglio could convert to Catholicism.

[metmom]

Justification is salvation.

When we are saved, we are justified before God.

It doesn’t happen at a later date.

Perhaps you mean *sanctification*, which is a process.

And yes, sanctification, becoming more and more Christlike, is the work of the Holy Spirit in us, but it’s not something we do to earn it. It’s not based on works we do, it’s based on work the Holy Spirit does in us to change our hearts.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come

1. The Bema Seat Judgement of the SAVED is a judgement of works alone. Scripture does not say it takes days, weeks, years or thousands of years. Nor does Scripture teach the person is suffering physically, but that his works are tested by fire and either burn up or survive, but the person himself will be saved, as though through fire.

2. There are no offenses that the Blood of Christ cannot cover - BEFORE death and never afterwards.

[kosciusko51]

And yet we who disagree with Rome are scorned for our differences.

So, if not “Protestant”, what term would you use to classify those outside of the Church of Rome that are “devout groups like the LCMS, Southern Baptist etc.” opposed to the “wack-a-doodle non-Christians like the ECUSA etc”.