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Why Every Christian, Not Just Catholics, Should Be Very Worried About The Catholic Sex Scandal
The Federalist ^ | 09/17/2018 | By Willis L. Krumholz and Robert Delahunty

Posted on 09/17/2018 11:01:08 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

The rapidly unfolding crisis in the Roman Catholic Church is not a matter of concern to Catholics alone. Its true dimensions have yet to be measured, but we think it will prove to be a crisis on the scale of the Protestant Reformation, which began just over 500 years ago — an earthquake of 9.5 on the Richter scale. If so, resolution of the crisis will take decades to work through.

Resolution and absolution will require serious effort, and most likely require deep, structural reforms. Even if we are mistaken, the Catholic crisis is of such a magnitude that Christians of all denominations must take a serious interest in it.

We are both evangelical Christians with strong ties to the Catholic Church and deep respect for it. One of us was raised as a Catholic, was educated at Catholic primary and secondary schools, and has taught for the past 14 years at a Catholic law school; the other is a graduate of the law school and the business school of that Catholic university, and has many Catholic family members.

We also care deeply about our many Catholic friends, and the health of the Roman Catholic Church, which is an enormous force for good in this world. We also believe that what happens with the Catholic Church will affect Christianity worldwide. In other words, we have a stake in the matter.

Non-Catholics Should Pay Attention

Some Catholics may regard the crisis in their church as a purely internal matter, and consider outside commentary unwelcome and intrusive, even if it is well-meant. Likewise, many non-Catholic Christians may assume the Catholic crisis does not affect them at all, and perhaps even find in that crisis confirmation for their darkest views of Catholicism.

We do not accept that position. Non-Catholic Christians should take an active part in the conversation about the Catholic crisis. While they must be unfailingly tactful and sympathetic, they should also be as critical as is necessary given what is at stake. The well-known writer Rod Dreher, formerly a Catholic and now Eastern Orthodox, has posted frequently on the Catholic crisis, and is a magnificent model for other non-Catholic Christians to follow.

Among many reasons for non-Catholic interventions, three stand out in our minds.

1. The Victims

First, every Christian has a compelling obligation to protect the weak and vulnerable to the greatest extent possible. The victims of clerical sex abuse in the Catholic Church (as elsewhere) have often been children. While many victims have been compensated — if “compensation” for such injuries is really possible — and the Catholic Church in many places has instituted practices to guard against future abuse, it remains necessary to speak on behalf of those who have been victimized and those who may still be at risk.

All Christians, especially Catholics, should be angry. It is unbearable to think of what has been done “to the least of these” by those claiming to speak in the name of Christ. Many of the children targeted and abused came from broken and dysfunctional homes. Many are fatherless.

The church is charged with mending the emptiness that a broken family brings, not violently shattering a child’s world. God is the father to the fatherless. What would Christ, who overturned tables at the temple and chased out the moneychangers with a whip, do to those who sexually molest his children?

Far too many in the church hierarchy, including the pope, are not sufficiently angry. For example, this coming January, Cardinal Barbarin, the archbishop of Lyons in France, will be standing trial for allegedly covering up the crimes of a local priest who, in the 1980s, sexually abused Boy Scouts. A local priest has gathered more than 100,000 signatures to petition the pope to remove this cardinal.

Thus far, however, Pope Francis seems not to have responded to that petition. However, in 2016, despite knowing of the allegations against the cardinal, and apparently without meeting or hearing the victims of the priest’s abuse, Pope Francis praised Barbarin as “brave.” He also has not ordered a canonical proceeding against him.

We are not prejudging Barbarin’s guilt or innocence: that depends on the outcome of his case in January. But we think it is fair to say that Pope Francis’ handling of the affair indicates that he is — at best — over-eager to defend his hierarchy and insufficiently attentive to those who have suffered at their hands.

The pope is not the only member of the Catholic hierarchy who seems simply unable to register the severity of the injuries they cause to their victims, and others at risk from them. Recently, on a visit to a seminary, Chicago Cardinal Blase Cupich, a Francis appointee, answered one anguished young candidate for the priesthood by saying, “While the church’s ‘agenda’ certainly involves protecting kids from harm, ‘we have a bigger agenda than to be distracted by all of this.’” His audience was reportedly dumbfounded: Surely the problem of sexual abuse of seminaries and children is more than a “distraction?”

In a similar vein, Cardinal Oscar Maradiaga of Honduras has excoriated a group of 50 Honduran seminarians for petitioning the Vatican to correct homosexual abuses going on in their seminary. We apparently are to believe that 50 seminaries are spreading malicious lies, while Madariaga, whose top aide resigned last July in the wake of charges of sexual and financial misconduct, is only speaking the truth.

Moreover, the victims of clerical abuse and the hierarchical concealment of them are not limited to those who have personally suffered sexual affronts. The financial costs to the Catholic Church of litigating and settling abuse cases have been staggering, and are now likely to escalate much higher. In 2015, the National Catholic Reporter found that the church had incurred $4 billion since 1950 in costs related to clerical sex abuse.

Research has also found that the church lost about $2.3 billion annually over the last 30 years due to scandal-related consequences, in the form of lost membership, and diverted giving. Specifically, there is a notable drop in giving in areas rocked by abuse. This makes sense. Why should good people give to pay for bad things?

Abuse litigation in the Los Angeles Archdiocese alone cost $740 million. Yet the former archbishop of Los Angeles, Cardinal Roger Mahony, under whose tenure (1985-2011) there were 500 alleged victims, is still considered a “priest in good standing” and has not been demoted by the pope.

These amounts will likely rise significantly in the wake of the recent report by a Pennsylvania grand jury detailing abuse in most (but not all) of that state’s Catholic dioceses, the overwhelming likelihood that similar investigations will occur in other states, and the risk that statutes of limitations will be amended to expose the Catholic Church to greater liability.

That means the American Catholic Church has had, and will have, far fewer resources to help the poor, to care for the sick, to shelter the homeless, and to educate children. These are victims too.

2. Concern for Fellow Christians

Second, even if you happen not to be a Catholic, surely you have Catholic family members, spouses, close friends, or colleagues who are Catholics. Almost half of the U.S. population has a “strong” connection to the Catholic Church. We have often found the Catholics closest to us to be dismayed by the situation in their church — angry, stunned, confused, or even in denial. Fellow Christians should share their agony.

The other Christian churches should want a healthy, robust Catholic Church, not the gravely weakened one of the present. American Catholicism was losing members alarmingly even before the current phase of the Catholic crisis. It is said that the second largest American denomination, after the Catholic Church, is ex-Catholics.

Not all of that decline is due to the clerical scandals; the general re-paganization of American society has surely played its part. But it seems likely that many former Catholics have abandoned their church (or at least are boycotting it) because of the scandals. The abuse scandals may also be playing a role in this re-paganization — after all, abuse of young boys was a pagan practice that early Christianity condemned and sought to stamp out.

In light of all this, non-Catholic Christians may be increasingly tempted to view Catholicism as a kind of pariah church within global Christianity. But that would not only be uncharitable; it would be unwise. To a great extent, the reputation of the Christian faith itself is besmirched when a large Christian denomination is engulfed in continuing scandals.

3. The Risk to Religious Liberty

When a large corporate body proves unable to govern itself, the chances are high that the government will step in. We saw this when financial institutions considered “too big to fail” were either shuttered by the government or subjected to deeply intrusive government regulation. The Catholic Church is heading towards the same predicament. Unless it can prove, very rapidly, that it is capable of managing its own affairs, it will come under increasing governmental scrutiny and control. Thereby it will pose a danger to the religious liberties of us all.

Already, the American Catholic Church is under the regulatory microscope. We’ve mentioned the stunning grand jury report from Pennsylvania. Attorneys general in five other states — Illinois, New York, Nebraska, New Mexico, Missouri, and now Kentucky — have been quick to take the cue.

These investigations may well reveal problems as deep, intractable, and serious as those discovered in Pennsylvania. That is, the systematic abuse of children was known to be occurring, and no one did anything about it.

Federal and state courts have already been involved, e.g., in diocesan bankruptcy cases. They are now likely to be trying larger numbers of criminal cases related to the abuse scandals, including some against ranking Catholic prelates. There is even a possibility that the Department of Justice may launch an anti-racketeering suit against the American Catholic Church.

Yes, there is a sturdy tradition of religious liberty in this country, and it enjoys constitutional protection in the First Amendment. But in the past several years, that tradition has been weakening, and government has asserted broader power to control decisions that churches once considered their own.

The Obama administration’s “contraception mandate” is a case in point. Given that growing numbers of Americans have severed their affiliations to any religion or church, the public (and the courts) may grow increasingly indifferent to arguments of behalf of religious liberty, and come to regard governmental regulation of all churches with greater acceptance. These trends will be aggravated if the largest American denomination seems scandal-ridden and unable to right itself. That makes the problems of the Catholic Church a matter of the highest concern for us all.

Gazing Into the Abyss

It is absolutely essential that Catholics grasp the depth of this crisis. As we have said, we think it will become as severe and as comprehensive as the crisis of the Protestant Reformation 500 years ago. With remarkable swiftness, Catholicism simply collapsed in what had been Catholic strongholds — most of Germany, Scandinavia, the Netherlands, Switzerland, England, Scotland, and very nearly France. In recent decades, Catholicism has likewise lost its grip in what had been bastions — like French Canada, Spain, Ireland, and Brazil.

Forty years ago, virtually the entire population of southern Ireland turned out to welcome Pope John Paul II. A few weeks ago, the Irish population essentially shunned the visiting Pope Francis, and the Irish prime minister gave him a stern lecture on his church’s reduced place in that country. What would St. Patrick, who, despite just escaping from slavery in pagan Ireland, returned to the island after hearing the screams of the damned in his dreams, think of the church today?

As goes Ireland, so will go the rest of Roman Catholic Christendom. The church in Germany has been rocked by scandal and there are thousands of known-victims. Already, the hierarchy of the Catholic Church is under judgment in Chile, the United States, Australia, France, and Honduras. The crisis has long since gone global.

In fact, as the Catholic scholar Benjamin Wiker has argued, the current crisis is more threatening for the Catholic Church than the Protestant Reformation 500 years ago. For one thing, the Reformation began in a society that was still overwhelmingly Christian. Some historians of the pre-Reformation period even argue that Christian piety was deepening and broadening in the run-up to the Reformation, and that the Christian laity was already assuming a more prominent role in managing church affairs (a development greatly accelerated by Lutherans and Calvinists). But the contemporary Western world seems rapidly to be losing whatever residual Christianity was left in it. That makes a Catholic recovery more problematic.

Second, the internet spreads news of the Catholic crisis within seconds into every house. Everyone knows everything. Pope Francis, who seems to prefer talking about plastics in our oceans over the systemic problem of child abuse, may count on a friendly and collaborative media to ignore or downplay the charges Archbishop Vigano recently brought personally against him. But even if information leaks out drip by drip, the Catholic hierarchy and the Vatican can no longer safely rely on secrecy and on silence to cover their misdeeds.

Just as the printing press was a major force in the spread of the Reformation in Martin Luther’s Germany, so internet journalism (and, who knows, even the mainstream media when the pope is no longer useful to their agenda) will sooner or later force the disclosure of the facts. So it will not do for Catholics simply to say, “We have been through this before. We will make it through again.” In the end, that belief may be vindicated. We sincerely hope it is. But in the meanwhile, they must be energetically fashioning responses that are truly commensurate to this crisis.

Willis L. Krumholz lives in Minneapolis, Minnesota. He is a JD/MBA graduate from the University of St. Thomas, and works in the financial services industry. Robert J. Delahunty is a professor of law at the University of St Thomas and has taught Constitutional Law there for a decade.


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: catholics; catholicsexscandal; popesexscandal; sexscandal; sexualabuse
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To: MeganC
While I would love to see the homosexual cabal that is destroying the Catholic Church from within crucified naked on cactus trees

How do you feel about "rods from God"? The irony would be *magnificent*.

See, the proof that this is of diabolical origin, is that if the #echo_homo crowd is left alone, they rot the Church from within; but if they stall long enough, government forces come in (abuse, RICO) and destroy the limited immunity the Church has from the militant secularists.

121 posted on 09/17/2018 10:28:14 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: boatbums; metmom; aMorePerfectUnion; ealgeone; Luircin; Campion
So, I take it you include all us FORMER Roman Catholics in this definition of "formal heretics" and condemn us to hell if we remain outside of the RCC?

Yep, I guess us former Catholics are up the proverbial creek. I don’t know if all Catholics believe that, but some surely do. I guess that means, that since I am an ex catholic, I am obstinately refusing to accept Catholic doctrine. You know what BB, I am comfortable with that. I also have ABSOLUTE assurance of salvation. Maybe I am up two creeks, but that’s ok. If it’s all the same to everyone, I think I will remain outside the one true church. After all, rejecting a religion, does not mean I reject the real Jesus, as opposed to the fake Jesus of the cults. 😁👊🤗👍

122 posted on 09/18/2018 12:01:45 AM PDT by Mark17 (Genesis chapter 1 verse 1. In the beginning GOD....And the rest, as they say, is HIS-story)
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To: metmom
Simply reading something and stating what it says is not hard in the least.

Don’t we know someone who does exactly that, and says he is not interpreting scripture. I can’t remember his screen name, but I know he is around. 😁😊🤗🤣 When I was a catholic, I was told I needed a priest to interpret scripture for me. I don’t know if all Catholics are told this, but I know I was. 👎 I was a TOTALLY rebellious catholic. When they told me I needed a priest, I just picked up a Bible, and started reading it, just to spite the Church. Was I rebellious dude, or what? 🤣 I am glad now that I was. 👍👊

123 posted on 09/18/2018 12:13:48 AM PDT by Mark17 (Genesis chapter 1 verse 1. In the beginning GOD....And the rest, as they say, is HIS-story)
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To: grey_whiskers; Normandy; teppe

Did someone say 'rod of iron'??


 

The First Book of Nephi

Chapter 8

Lehi sees a vision of the tree of life—He partakes of its fruit and desires his family to do likewise—He sees a rod of iron, a strait and narrow path, and the mists of darkness that enshroud men—Sariah, Nephi, and Sam partake of the fruit, but Laman and Lemuel refuse. About 600–592 B.C.

 1 And it came to pass that we had gathered together all manner of aseeds of every kind, both of grain of every kind, and also of the seeds of fruit of every kind.

 2 And it came to pass that while my father tarried in the wilderness he spake unto us, saying: Behold, I have adreamed a dream; or, in other words, I have bseen a cvision.

 3 And behold, because of the thing which I have seen, I have reason to rejoice in the Lord because of aNephi and also of Sam; for I have reason to suppose that they, and also many of their seed, will be saved.

 4 But behold, aLaman and Lemuel, I fear exceedingly because of you; for behold, methought I saw in my dream, a dark and dreary wilderness.

 5 And it came to pass that I saw a aman, and he was dressed in a white brobe; and he came and stood before me.

 6 And it came to pass that he spake unto me, and bade me follow him.

 7 And it came to pass that as I followed him I beheld myself that I was in a dark and dreary waste.

 8 And after I had traveled for the space of many hours in darkness, I began to pray unto the Lord that he would have amercy on me, according to the multitude of his tender mercies.

 9 And it came to pass after I had prayed unto the Lord I beheld a large and spacious afield.

 10 And it came to pass that I beheld a atree, whose bfruit was desirable to make one chappy.

 11 And it came to pass that I did go forth and partake of the afruit thereof; and I beheld that it was most sweet, above all that I ever before tasted. Yea, and I beheld that the fruit thereof was white, to exceed all the bwhiteness that I had ever seen.

 12 And as I partook of the fruit thereof it filled my soul with exceedingly great ajoy; wherefore, I began to be bdesirous that my family should partake of it also; for I knew that it was cdesirable above all other fruit.

 13 And as I cast my eyes round about, that perhaps I might discover my family also, I beheld a ariver of water; and it ran along, and it was near the tree of which I was partaking the fruit.

 14 And I looked to behold from whence it came; and I saw the head thereof a little way off; and at the head thereof I beheld your mother Sariah, and Sam, and aNephi; and they stood as if they knew not whither they should go.

 15 And it came to pass that I beckoned unto them; and I also did say unto them with a loud voice that they should come unto me, and partake of the fruit, which was desirable above all other fruit.

 16 And it came to pass that they did come unto me and partake of the fruit also.

 17 And it came to pass that I was desirous that Laman and Lemuel should come and partake of the fruit also; wherefore, I cast mine eyes towards the head of the river, that perhaps I might see them.

 18 And it came to pass that I saw them, but they would anot come unto me and partake of the fruit.

 19 And I beheld a arod of iron, and it extended along the bank of the river, and led to the tree by which I stood.

 20 And I also beheld a astrait and narrow path, which came along by the rod of iron, even to the tree by which I stood; and it also led by the head of the fountain, unto a large and spacious field, as if it had been a bworld.

 21 And I saw numberless concourses of people, many of whom were apressing forward, that they might obtain the bpath which led unto the tree by which I stood.

 22 And it came to pass that they did come forth, and commence in the path which led to the tree.

 23 And it came to pass that there arose a amist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were blost.

 24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, aclinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the bfruit of the tree.

 25 And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were aashamed.

 26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the aother side of the river of water, a great and bspacious building; and it stood as it were in the cair, high above the earth.

 27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the aattitude of bmocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.

 28 And after they had atasted of the fruit they were bashamed, because of those that were cscoffing at them; and they dfell away into forbidden paths and were lost.

 29 And now I, Nephi, do not speak aall the words of my father.

 30 But, to be short in writing, behold, he saw other multitudes pressing forward; and they came and caught hold of the end of the arod of iron; and they did press their way forward, continually holding fast to the rod of iron, until they came forth and fell down and partook of the fruit of the tree.

 31 And he also saw other amultitudes feeling their way towards that great and spacious building.

 32 And it came to pass that many were drowned in the adepths of the bfountain; and many were lost from his view, wandering in strange roads.

 33 And great was the multitude that did enter into that strange building. And after they did enter into that building they did point the finger of ascorn at me and those that were partaking of the fruit also; but we heeded them not.

 34 These are the words of my father: For as many as aheeded them, had fallen away.

 35 And aLaman and Lemuel partook not of the fruit, said my father.

 36 And it came to pass after my father had spoken all the words of his dream or vision, which were many, he said unto us, because of these things which he saw in a vision, he exceedingly feared for Laman and Lemuel; yea, he feared lest they should be cast off from the presence of the Lord.

 37 And he did aexhort them then with all the feeling of a tender parent, that they would hearken to his words, that perhaps the Lord would be merciful to them, and not cast them off; yea, my father did preach unto them.

 38 And after he had preached unto them, and also prophesied unto them of many things, he bade them to keep the commandments of the Lord; and he did cease speaking unto them.



124 posted on 09/18/2018 4:17:40 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Campion

Well by the way you have been flamed, it looks like the postings work.


125 posted on 09/18/2018 4:24:06 AM PDT by Biggirl ("One Lord, one faith, one baptism" - Ephesians 4:5)
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To: Elsie

Nope, I meant telephone sized tungsten rods shot down from Earth orbit.


126 posted on 09/18/2018 4:24:31 AM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Mark17
I also have ABSOLUTE assurance of salvation.

For which you should just say, "Thank You.", and go on your way.


Thanks; Rome; for INCLUDING John's words in the Book you assembled so long ago.


 
 
 
https://youtu.be/6vfqYwfTqlE

127 posted on 09/18/2018 4:31:10 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: grey_whiskers
Oh...



128 posted on 09/18/2018 4:44:26 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
Thanks; Rome; for INCLUDING John's words in the Book you assembled so long ago.

Yes, I should thank Rome for writing the Bible, from which I get my absolute assurance of salvation. How can they criticize me for simply reading the book (Bible) that they wrote? 😁🤣👊👍🇵🇭

129 posted on 09/18/2018 5:47:33 AM PDT by Mark17 (Genesis chapter 1 verse 1. In the beginning GOD....And the rest, as they say, is HIS-story)
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To: Mark17

Yes, he is still here.

And I feel the same way.

Forbidden fruit tastes the sweetest


130 posted on 09/18/2018 5:58:50 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith......)
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To: boatbums; RegulatorCountry

person who holds heresy =/= unsaved

person who holds heresy =/= non-Cristian

person who holds heresy =/= damned

Not understanding this may be what caused this misunderstanding


131 posted on 09/18/2018 8:12:51 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (What does the LORD require of you: to act justly, to love tenderly, and to walk humbly with your God)
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To: Just mythoughts

Christ said call no man father.


That is exactly right, i think the Catholics are right about many things but talk about straining on a knat and swallowing a camel.


132 posted on 09/18/2018 9:12:33 AM PDT by ravenwolf (Left lane drivers and tailgaters have the smallest brains in the world.)
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To: SeekAndFind; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; kinsman redeemer; BlueDragon; metmom; boatbums; ...
We are both evangelical Christians with strong ties to the Catholic Church and deep respect for it.

Then the greatest concern should be that of the term "evangelical" being divorced from its historical emphasis on doctrine and conversion, including from Catholicism, and rejection of it as a valid church (though not without salvific Truths). And to a version of evangelical which is too often guilty of the same failings, and presents Catholicism as an esteemed true church they are in union with, despite its greatly liberal membership .

Rather, in both doctrine and morality those who seek to conform to the faith of the NT church as per the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what it believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), need to be separate from both liberal Protestantism - which tends to be closest to Catholicism - and from the latter as regards spiritual fellowship, though contending for the core Truths and morality we agree on (at least Rome does officially).

I come far enough behind the purity, probity and passion of the prima NT church without being dragged back into a basically dead entity.

133 posted on 09/18/2018 9:49:49 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: BillyBoy; unlearner
Now, replace the word Calvinism with Catholicism, and a ton of "evangelical leaders" DO spew that kind of nonsense. You can't "show compassion for fellow brothers and sisters in Christ" if you're not even willing to acknowledge they ARE Christians to begin with. To guys like Ray Comfort and his ilk, millions of people who sincerely believe in the Holy Trinity are no different than Buddhists

Your polemical recourse to extreme unsubstantiated broad brush assertions (unlike those by popes who do damn all who do not live and die in the bosom of Rome) does not help your argument.

134 posted on 09/18/2018 10:23:30 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: BillyBoy; aMorePerfectUnion
Though I suspect if you did a poll, you'd find about 10X as many "evangelicals" denying that Catholics are Christians, than vice versa.

What you suspect is suspect. And as for polls, we do have this:

Globally 98% of evangelical leaders agree that the Bible is the word of God. Only 3% believe that human life has evolved with no involvement from a supreme being, and 47% reject theistic evolution, while 41% believe God has used evolution for the purpose of creating humans and other life. http://www.pewforum.org/2011/06/22/global-survey-of-evangelical-protestant-leaders/


135 posted on 09/18/2018 10:31:25 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: Gay State Conservative
Worried...inasmuch as Marxists in the West,and elsewhere,will use this to try to destroy not just Catholicism but Christianity.

Thus is true, and its like as should be done with disowning the Inquisitions and all bloody means, those who seek to be and preach according to NT faith need to not be guilty of what has happened in fallen churches, and to manifest separation from them, not union.

136 posted on 09/18/2018 10:34:52 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; boatbums; RegulatorCountry
person who holds heresy =/= unsaved

person who holds heresy =/= non-Cristian

person who holds heresy =/= damned

Not understanding this may be what caused this misunderstanding

Got chapter and verse references for those claims?

In God's economy, the only people unsaved, non-Christian, and damned are those without Christ.

It has nothing to do with holding to church doctrine.

137 posted on 09/18/2018 10:48:54 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith......)
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To: SeekAndFind

.
“Christianity” is going up in smoke, and that’s OK.

It never was real; it was invented by Eusebius to please Constantine.

The real faith of Yeshua will live on and thrive in the evolving vacuum. Its growing world wide, expecially in the nations of east Asia.
.


138 posted on 09/18/2018 10:54:15 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Campion; ealgeone
It's funny how the very same people who accuse us of holding that all Protestants are going to hell also accuse us of being soft on Muslims.

I've seen no non-Catholic here on FR accuse any FRoman Catholics of being soft on muslims.

Instead, we do what you always appeal to, go to official church teaching and doctrine and here it is.

YOUR pope kissing the koran. Fits right in with YOUR Catechism of the Catholic church.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

YOUR religion is soft on muslims and this current pope is the worst of all.

139 posted on 09/18/2018 10:55:33 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith......)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; RegulatorCountry
Reg, I have been here at FR since before 2000 (I was here on my husband's account, don-o, before I signed up myself) --- and I have never seen a Catholic at this site who said Protestants are not Christians. And you've seen "quite a few"? OK, please send links identifying those Catechism-rejecting Catholics who say non-Catholics who profess Christ are not Christians, and I will go after them hammer and tongs.

I can actually provide you (and the mod if needed) with links by PM (I have saved a lot of my postings, etc.) to posts by Catholics that made like comments, including that Protestantism is a false religion, belief in one’s self, who have no faith in Christ, no foundation for their superficial understanding of Christianity, who are by inclination vandals, evil fruit, ignorant, biblically illiterate, typically intellectually dishonest, absolutely alien to Christianity, a false religion, a bizarre and false religion, a mass of sheer rot, a heretical brand of Christianity, who completely reject Christ, belief in one’s self, with no foundation for their understanding of Christianity, and who are unable to defend it.

And even yet also claim there is not a bit of anti-protestant bigotry among Catholics here, nor that they never belittle or challenge beliefs from protestants, incldg. threads of Catholics initiating an argument with protestants.

140 posted on 09/18/2018 10:56:13 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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