Posted on 06/02/2018 6:34:56 AM PDT by Salvation
Question: A Protestant told me recently that Peter can’t be the rock since Jesus is described as the rock and cornerstone of the Church, and he showed me a couple of places where Jesus is described as the cornerstone and even a stumbling block to unbelievers. Is there an answer for this? — Allen Desome, Washington, D.C.
Answer: Of course Jesus, Peter and others who are called “rock” or stone are not literally chunks of stone. What we have in such attestations is the application of a metaphor. Scripture, like any lengthy document uses many metaphors, similes and analogies. Such things can be true in different ways.
In the Scriptures we see that Peter is called “the rock” by Jesus (Mt 16:18). Jesus is also called a stone (1 Pt 2:6). And the apostles and prophets are called foundation stones and Jesus as the cornerstone (Eph 2:20). The Book of Revelation describes the Twelve Apostles as foundation stones (Rev 21:14). So there are a number of “stone” references that need not be mutually exclusive.
Jesus is the deepest and surest foundation of the Church. That the Apostles, prophets and, in a special way, Peter are rock is understood in a subordinate sense. That is, they are rock and foundation for the Church on account of the grace and support of Jesus.
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The Protestant to whom you refer fails to see the context and metaphorical sense of the texts and terms. He also fails to see that Jesus, while not abandoning his Church as her true head and foundation, does assign Peter a unique status to be the visible and identifiable rock on which the Church will be built. Peter (and his successors) is the rock, but he does not stand in midair. He is supported by Christ and his grace and affirmed by him as the visible rock and head of the Church. The Protestant approach is to see the Church as invisible. But Jesus did not establish an invisible Church. It is visible and with a visible rock and head: Peter and his successors.
As a Roman Catholic you are not allowed an opinion in these matters.
Proving once again that it is the Roman Catholic, though not always but usually in the majority,
Still waiting for an answer.
1 Cor 4 READ IT.
That is why i am not a Roman Catholic.
I said that just in case you may know what you are talking about, i don`t know much about the Catholic.
Where does Paul encourage them to call him father??
1 Cor 4:14
Is an opinion, not a fact.
Wow, you will go to any length to try to prove Jesus said any thing except what he said.
Sounding like and actually saying so are two different things. You’re reading into the text what you want it to say.
Apologies for misconstruing your position to be that of a Roman Catholic. They are usually the ones arguing your position.
Except the NT is recorded in Greek. That's what you're arguing against.
The red letters are not more important than the black letters.
Paul did not command anyone to address him with the title of *Father*, nor did he encourage them to.
Jesus coomanded His followers to NOT address religious leaders as *father*
It’s very simple.
That’s not what many Catholics here on FR have told us.
The KJ is good enough for me but for those of little understanding maybe the NIV works better
Corinthians 4:14-21
14 I am writing this not to shame you but to warn you as my dear children. 15 Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you to imitate me. 17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
This takes no explanation so i will not insult you by explaining it, just note he told them he was their father ( a tittle )
Corinthians 4:14-21 14 I am writing this not to shame you but to warn you as my dear children. 15 Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you to imitate me. 17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
This takes no explanation so i will not insult you by explaining it, just note he told them he was their father ( a tittle )
Yet, you went ahead and tried to explain the verse and attempted to use a backhanded insult in the process....but I bet you are aware of that.
However, it still does not say what you want it to say. No where does Paul extol the Corinthians, or anyone else for that matter, to refer to him as Father Paul.
The phrase in question is rendered as follows in the Greek:
ἐγὼ ὑμᾶς ἐγέννησα.
A literal rendering would be: I you have begotten.
Pau's introduction to the Corinthians.... 1Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 1 Corinthians 1:1 NASB
No reference to being Father Paul.
If we were to apply Roman Catholic logic to the situation, anytime you help lead someone to Christ you would be their father. This would result in everyone who did this being addressed as Father _______.
That it does not happen that way shows how incorrect your attempt to understand this passage really is.
Yet, you went ahead and tried to explain the verse and attempted to use a backhanded insult in the process....but I bet you are aware of that.
———————————————————————————————No, that is false i just noted the father because it is in the scripture.
“However, it still does not say what you want it to say. No where does Paul extol the Corinthians, or anyone else for that matter, to refer to him as Father Paul.”
That is false.
“A literal rendering would be: I you have begotten.”
That is also false.
” No reference to being Father Paul.”
Another false statement.
You really need to just believe the scriptures rather than try to rewrite them, you are not that good at it.
Yes it is...hence why I posted the Greek for your education.
I see your line of reasoning is very suspect.
Read the New Testament. You will not find Paul or any of the Apostles referring to themselves as Father ______.
This would fall in line with Jesus saying to call no man father.
That is also false.
Ok, junior.....you're out of your league here.
No run along and play somewhere else.
1 Corinthian 4:15 (KJV)
“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”
As for the Greek, is exactly as you said. The modern translation change idiomatically to became your father, including the NASB, which is surprising. But in any event, it is not an honorific, it is a statement of fact.
This post of yours tells me pretty much all I need to know about your theological perspective.
You're saying the Holy Spirit messed things up when He was moving Paul to write his letters.
Got it.
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