Peter as rock

Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 05-30-18 | Msgr, Charles Pope

[Salvation]

Peter as rock

Question: A Protestant told me recently that Peter can’t be the rock since Jesus is described as the rock and cornerstone of the Church, and he showed me a couple of places where Jesus is described as the cornerstone and even a stumbling block to unbelievers. Is there an answer for this? — Allen Desome, Washington, D.C.

Answer: Of course Jesus, Peter and others who are called “rock” or stone are not literally chunks of stone. What we have in such attestations is the application of a metaphor. Scripture, like any lengthy document uses many metaphors, similes and analogies. Such things can be true in different ways.

In the Scriptures we see that Peter is called “the rock” by Jesus (Mt 16:18). Jesus is also called a stone (1 Pt 2:6). And the apostles and prophets are called foundation stones and Jesus as the cornerstone (Eph 2:20). The Book of Revelation describes the Twelve Apostles as foundation stones (Rev 21:14). So there are a number of “stone” references that need not be mutually exclusive.

Jesus is the deepest and surest foundation of the Church. That the Apostles, prophets and, in a special way, Peter are rock is understood in a subordinate sense. That is, they are rock and foundation for the Church on account of the grace and support of Jesus.

The Protestant to whom you refer fails to see the context and metaphorical sense of the texts and terms. He also fails to see that Jesus, while not abandoning his Church as her true head and foundation, does assign Peter a unique status to be the visible and identifiable rock on which the Church will be built. Peter (and his successors) is the rock, but he does not stand in midair. He is supported by Christ and his grace and affirmed by him as the visible rock and head of the Church. The Protestant approach is to see the Church as invisible. But Jesus did not establish an invisible Church. It is visible and with a visible rock and head: Peter and his successors.

[metmom]

Do you or do you not think that the Holy Spirit inspired Scripture?

[metmom]

So do i but that does not mean i am going to call Jesus a liar when he said that Simon would be called Cephas which is rock in Aramaic.

But that's not the issue.

The issue is whether or not Jesus was referring to Peter as the rock on which His church would be built.

And Scripture is clear that *petra* is JESUS.

[metmom]

Mathew 23;3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Then why do you call your priests *father*?

Matthew 23:1-12 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.

But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

[imardmd1]

Your Post #436: So do i but that does not mean i am going to call Jesus a liar when he said that Simon would be called Cephas which is rock in Aramaic.

Your Post #439: So you say Jesus was a liar? “horse manure”.

Your Post #440: And Jesus cleansed the pigs, halleluya.

Apparently you've made an/some false assumption(s) and worked yourself up to a potty-mouth rage by failing to read and understand what I have written, and attributing a position to me that I have not taken. So let me help you back to reality.

First, consider the instances in which the word--written as "Cephas" in the English alphabet, "Κηφᾶς" in the Greek alphabet, whose Aramaic root is written as "כּף" in the modern Hebrew alphabet--was applied by Jesus as a label, a nickname, for the disciple whose birth name was Simon bar Jona.

Here are the definitions and meaning of it as given by the lexicographers (Thayer, Brown/Driver/Briggs, Gesenius, Tregelles) or by the translators of the KJV as analyzed by Strong:

========

Strong's Number G2786

Κηφᾶς
Kēphas
kay-fas'

Strong's Definition:
Of Chaldee origin (compare [H3710]); the Rock; Cephas (that is, Kepha), surname of Peter: - Cephas.

Thayer Definition:
Cephas = "stone"
1) another name for the apostle Peter
Part of Speech: noun proper masculine

Strong's Number H3710

כּף
kêph
kafe

From H3721; a hollow rock: - rock.

Brown, Driver, Briggs Definition
1) rock, hollow of a rock
Part of Speech: noun masculine Gesenius OT Definition (as translated by S. Tregelles):
m.^masculine rock, only used in the plural Jer. 4:29; Job 30:6
(^{occurs in} Syr. and Chald.; whence, in New Test. Κηφᾶς i. q. Πέτρος)

=========

(1) Please note that the word is so obscure and little-used that it only appears twice in the Hebrew writings, and then only to describe literal standing stones that people can climb over, among which they can hide:

"The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein" (Jer. 4:29 AV; bolded for emphasis).

"To dwell in the clifts of the valleys, in caves of the earth, and in^amongst the rocks" (Job 30:6 AV).

(2) Please note that no figurative meaning is applied to the word, no similes or personification involved im Biblical use, thus separating the word and its import from the other words for rock formations that do have many figurative associations for God and His Messiah. Thus there is NO connection between the Aramaic/Greek sobriquets Kefas/Cephas and Petros conferred in thse languages on Simon bar Jona, as compared to The Hebrew/Aramaic words "Selah" and "Tsoor" and the Greek word "Petra" that the Scripture uses to identify God and His Christ.

(3) You may not have been aware of the fact that Jesus' first instance of saying that Simon would be called Kefa/Petros was just a few days after His baptism by John, in Kislev (mid-December) of 29 A. D. That was therefore about two and a half years later, in Sivan (June) of 32 A.D., that Jesus told Simon, "You are Petros." So his fellow disciples had been calling him "Kefa" or "Petros" a long time before the incident in Caesarea Philippi thet Jesus revealed that it was the principle of His Own Godliness that was to be the immutable basis for the building of His Church of living stones.

(4) The label of Petros (Peter) was used 162 times to indicate Simon, and for nothing else.

(5) Nowhere in this thread or in my work have I ever given the implication that Jesus was lying when He told Simon, "Thou art Petros," by now a well-known fact, so you can cease this meaningless assertion. (6) The figuratively Godly attributes of reliabily, trustworthiness, strength, indestructibility, omnipresence, highness, etc. drawn from the literal words "selah," "tsoor," and "petra" for the great mass of earth's stone crust are not to be shared with Simon bar Jona as his attributes, as many have wrongly supposed through the grammatical error of confusing "Petros" with "petra."

It is long past the time to stop your foolishness, demonstrating your lack of mental nimbleness, quit pestering, and start learning a few bits of Bible interpretation from participants like metmom and boatbums and Fantasywriter and Daniel1212 and others.

[Elsie]

These churches are not in full communion with the Catholic Church and accordingly do not accept the authority of the Pope.

Do ANY FR Catholics???

[Elsie]

Are we STILL arguing over words in this thread??

[daniel1212]

Your Post #436: So do i but that does not mean i am going to call Jesus a liar when he said that Simon would be called Cephas which is rock in Aramaic. Your Post #439: So you say Jesus was a liar? “horse manure”. Your Post #440: And Jesus cleansed the pigs, halleluya. Apparently you've made an/some false assumption(s) and worked yourself up to a potty-mouth rage by failing to read and understand what I have written, and attributing a position to me that I have not taken. So let me help you back to reality. First, consider the instances in which the word--written as "Cephas" in the English alphabet, "Κηφᾶς" in the Greek alphabet, whose Aramaic root is written as "כּף" in the modern Hebrew alphabet--was applied by Jesus as a label, a nickname, for the disciple whose birth name was Simon bar Jona. Here are the definitions and meaning of it as given by the lexicographers (Thayer, Brown/Driver/Briggs, Gesenius, Tregelles) or by the translators of the KJV as analyzed by Strong: ======== Strong's Number G2786 Κηφᾶς KeÌ„phas kay-fas' Strong's Definition: Of Chaldee origin (compare [H3710]); the Rock; Cephas (that is, Kepha), surname of Peter: - Cephas. Thayer Definition: Cephas = "stone" 1) another name for the apostle Peter Part of Speech: noun proper masculine Strong's Number H3710 כּף keÌ‚ph kafe From H3721; a hollow rock: - rock. Brown, Driver, Briggs Definition 1) rock, hollow of a rock Part of Speech: noun masculine Gesenius OT Definition (as translated by S. Tregelles): m.masculine rock, only used in the plural Jer. 4:29; Job 30:6 (occurs in Syr. and Chald.; whence, in New Test. Κηφᾶς i. q. Πέτρος) ========= (1) Please note that the word is so obscure and little-used that it only appears twice in the Hebrew writings, and then only to describe literal standing stones that people can climb over, among which they can hide: "The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein" (Jer. 4:29 AV; bolded for emphasis). "To dwell in the clifts of the valleys, in caves of the earth, and inamongst the rocks" (Job 30:6 AV). (2) Please note that no figurative meaning is applied to the word, no similes or personification involved im Biblical use, thus separating the word and its import from the other words for rock formations that do have many figurative associations for God and His Messiah. Thus there is NO connection between the Aramaic/Greek sobriquets Kefas/Cephas and Petros conferred in thse languages on Simon bar Jona, as compared to The Hebrew/Aramaic words "Selah" and "Tsoor" and the Greek word "Petra" that the Scripture uses to identify God and His Christ. (3) You may not have been aware of the fact that Jesus' first instance of saying that Simon would be called Kefa/Petros was just a few days after His baptism by John, in Kislev (mid-December) of 29 A. D. That was therefore about two and a half years later, in Sivan (June) of 32 A.D., that Jesus told Simon, "You are Petros." So his fellow disciples had been calling him "Kefa" or "Petros" a long time before the incident in Caesarea Philippi thet Jesus revealed that it was the principle of His Own Godliness that was to be the immutable basis for the building of His Church of living stones. (4) The label of Petros (Peter) was used 162 times to indicate Simon, and for nothing else. (5) Nowhere in this thread or in my work have I ever given the implication that Jesus was lying when He told Simon, "Thou art Petros," by now a well-known fact, so you can cease this meaningless assertion. (6) The figuratively Godly attributes of reliabily, trustworthiness, strength, indestructibility, omnipresence, highness, etc. drawn from the literal words "selah," "tsoor," and "petra" for the great mass of earth's stone crust are not to be shared with Simon bar Jona as his attributes, as many have wrongly supposed through the grammatical error of confusing "Petros" with "petra."

And the belief that Peter was the rock of Mt. 16:18, and thus that the church looked to Peter as the first of a line of infallible popes reigning supreme over the church (esp. from Rome) is not what we see manifest in the record of the NT church (and which even Catholic researchers, among others, provide testimony against , and is contrary to it. In contrast to Peter, that the LORD Jesus is the Rock (“petra”) or "stone" (“lithos,” and which denotes a large rock in Mk. 16:4) upon which the church is built is one of the most abundantly confirmed doctrines in the Bible (petra: Rm. 9:33; 1Cor. 10:4; 1Pet. 2:8; cf. Lk. 6:48; 1Cor. 3:11; lithos: Mat. 21:42; Mk.12:10-11; Lk. 20:17-18; Act. 4:11; Rm. 9:33; Eph. 2:20; cf. Dt. 32:4, Is. 28:16) including by Peter himself. (1Pt. 2:4-8) Rome's current catechism attempts to have Peter himself as the rock as well, but also affirms: “On the rock of this faith confessed by St Peter, Christ build his Church,” (pt. 1, sec. 2, cp. 2, para. 424) which understanding some of the so-called “church fathers” concur with.)

[ravenwolf]

In the first place i thought this was a Bible discussion, but you are taking it away from the Bible and making it a word discussion.

I am satisfied with what the Bible says, the Bible i read says Cephas,i am satisfied with that.

Some of you people say that it was ordained by the holy spirit, then why go to extremes to take the meaning away.

” and attributing a position to me that I have not taken.”

Then why do you keep on insisting that Jesus did not say what he said?

You say it was just a nick name and where do you come up with the authority to assume that you know more of what Jesus intended than he himself did?

Do you believe that Jesus said call no man on earth father?

Most protestants do, therefore they do not have to go to the dictionary because they will say it is so simple, they are right and this is also so simple.

Any one who believes what Jesus said do not have any need to go all over the dictionary to try to change the meaning of what he said.

John 1:42
42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

A stone and rock is exactly the same thing but more importantly it has the same meaning.

There may be a few people who still say the earth is square even though it is proven to be what it is, not that they really believe that.

Jesus said that Simon would be called Cephas and in fact he has been called or at least thought of as the rock of the church by well over a billion people.

And that is not counting the non catholics like myself who think of him as such.

So if you want to change my mind about anything you will have to stick to scripture, pure and simple because if you start going to the word definition game i will assume you know you are wrong.

And if the holy spirit caused the word of God to be written in Greek and then Latin and English i believe we can trust that, we need no new translations such the 20th century religion with their leader Satan to tell us that Jesus never meant what he said

[MHGinTN]

Sandals, dust ... here’s your sign.

[ravenwolf]

Do you or do you not think that the Holy Spirit inspired Scripture?

---

I believe the holy spirit which is Christ caused the scripture to be written and preserved, that is why i believe some of you anti catholics here on FR is wrong to try to change anything Jesus said.

Then why do you call your priests *father*?”””””””’

I do not call any Priests my father, and i noticed that you got it right.

But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

I am proud of you as you never had to go to the word definition game even once as it was so simple.

No, it is only when Jesus says something you don`t like is when you feel you must go to the word definition game, you rascal you.

[ravenwolf]

Sandals, dust ... here’s your sign.

---

I do not know how to take that as i don`t know if it is in Greek or Hebrew, if you say it in Hebrew and then write it in Greek then it means you did not really say it, is that correct?

[ravenwolf]

But that’s not the issue.

---

Oh yes it is, i have have made it plain that i do not know if Jesus was referring to Peter or himself as the rock,

Here it is one more time.

John 1:42

42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

Cephas means rock in Aramaic, It means rock,stone or just Peter in english.

Do you believe Jesus was not telling the truth?

Well over a billion people on earth today thinks of Simon as
the rock not counting the protestants who think of him as such.

[metmom]

So you quote the Scripture where Jesus tells His disciples not to call any man *father*.

So are you going to quit addressing Catholic priests as *Father ________* or are you going to obey Jesus?

[daniel1212]

In the first place i thought this was a Bible discussion, but you are taking it away from the Bible and making it a word discussion. I am satisfied with what the Bible says, the Bible i read says Cephas,i am satisfied with that. Some of you people say that it was ordained by the holy spirit, then why go to extremes to take the meaning away. ” and attributing a position to me that I have not taken.” Then why do you keep on insisting that Jesus did not say what he said?

Are you responding to me?

[MHGinTN]

Matthew 10:14

.

[ravenwolf]

So you quote the Scripture where Jesus tells His disciples not to call any man *father*.

---

No, i was agreeing with you, you can quote plain scripture if it is something you agree with but i have no doubt if the Catholics believed that you was to call no man on earth father then you would come up with word definitions all over the place trying to prove it did not mean what it says,

You doctors of religion you, if you don`t believe what Jesus said just doctor it up.

[metmom]

You’re not making any sense.

Did Jesus tells His disciples to call no man on earth *father* or not?

[ravenwolf]

I am only saying that In my Kjv Jesus used the word Cephas in John1:42.

Cephas is Aramiac for rock, the greek makes it stone but it is the same thing, it comes out as peter in english from the greek, but is the same thing.

Jesus spoke in Aramaic Cephas means the same as our english rock but in any event changing the word would not change the meaning, what ever Jesus had in mind is the same regardless of the language it is translated to.

So what he said in his own language is all that matters.

[ravenwolf]

Did Jesus tells His disciples to call no man on earth *father* or not?

---

Well yes, unless you can come up with your word definition game and prove he met something else.

[metmom]

Then why do Catholics use the title *Father* to address their priests?