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Locked on 05/26/2018 9:25:39 PM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childish, personal, and attacks |
Posted on 05/26/2018 7:00:33 AM PDT by tiredofallofit
Well I finally got around to it – I am reading through some of the Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin. I say “some” because the complete work spans more than 1500 pages and deals with some of the most weighty and complex theological issues known to mankind. I have chosen for now to plod my way through the most controversial aspects of Calvin’s writings; the topics of predestination and election.
Most of my friends who call themselves Calvinists are eager to disassociate themselves from the doctrine of “double predestination”. They state that God has predestined some to eternal life, but they assure me that He would never send people to hell. People get there on their own, I am told. And what did Calvin teach? I ask. Usually, I receive some sort of vague answer – like how Calvin’s writings are difficult to understand or how misunderstood he is by other denominations. Ok, I get that. He was an intellectual giant – but what did he say about double predestination and if you don’t know exactly, then why do you call yourself a Calvinist?
So I decided to have a look for myself. Surprisingly, The Institutes of the Christian Religion are not so difficult to read or comprehend, despite the complexity of the topics discussed.
Calvin begins his discourse on the doctrine of predestination and election in Chapter 21 of Book 3 of his Institutes. If one just reads the title of this chapter and nothing else, he or she quickly ascertains Calvin’s view on double predestination – for the chapter is titled “OF THE ETERNAL ELECTION, BY WHICH GOD HAS PREDESTINATED SOME TO SALVATION, AND OTHERS TO DESTRUCTION.” That’s pretty clear, is it not?
But in case you still doubt his position, allow me to share with you this excerpt from Section 5 in Chapter 21:
"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."
He goes on to address the “arrogant” and “blasphemous” objections which are leveled at his view of predestination. And there are plenty of such objections. In typical Calvin style, he does not back down nor does he attempt to soften his message. God ordains some people to heaven and some people to hell, end of story.
“If that is what Calvin truly taught,” a Calvinist friend told me recently, “then I shouldn’t call myself a Calvinist. That’s not what I believe.”
There is no doubt that Calvin fully subscribed to the doctrine of double predestination. He invented it! Maybe it’s time for some Calvinists to revisit these Institutes of his and reevaluate their desire to affix this label on themselves.
Reference:
Calvin, John. Institutes of Christian religion. Trans. Henry Beveridge, Esq. 1599. Christian Classics Ethereal Library. Nov. 1999. 20 Sept. 2001
Fat Chance - if you know you are a member of the elect than so is your family and all your Christian friends - by virtue of the fact that they know you! :)
>>I’ve never met anyone who came to Calvinist beliefs simply by reading the Bible.
You have now. I didn’t know they were Calvinist beliefs. I was a Methodist and things I read did not make sense with what I was taught. I asked questions and was told that there are things that seem to contradict because the bible does not give the full story and we will learn that in heaven.
I studied more and more and pestered more people. One day, I was studying Calvinism to teach the “annual” anti-Calvinism class and I began to see things that made sense. I asked my pastor and he told me that I need to steer clear of TULIP because they believe that everyone is a robot you don’t want to be robot, do you?
I dropped it and hit the “I believe” button and assumed that it is impossible to understand salvation because it is designed to be confusing. From time to time, I’d ask someone authoritative in the UMC and would get the same sort of answers, so i was happy with it.
Years later, I decided to leave the UMC for other reasons. I needed a new church and started shopping and a friend pointed me to one nearby and he said he loved it. I checked and it was Presbyterian, so I thanked him and so no way I’m becoming a Calvinist. He didn’t really know much so he just said OK.
It started bugging me because I only knew what people who hate Calvinism told me that it is. So, I started looking for someone Calvinist to explain it. I have a friend who is Presbyterian (PCUSA—the Progressive Presbys) and asked him. He described Calvinism as “basically the same as Methodist, you’ll love it.” I knew that was BS considering how much the Methodists try to steer people away.
I did some reading on my own and then found RC Sproul’s “What is Reformed Theology” and read it. Suddenly, everything made sense to me. I understood the full gospel for the first time.
Then, I remembered something that my most liberal Methodist pastor once told me. It was that churches that believe heavily in personal salvation tend to be light in social justice and vice versa.
They had been lying to me to push their social justice, “Jesus was a Socialist” agenda! They need you to be in fear for your soul constantly to be able to keep asking you, “ARE YOU DOING ENOUGH?”
I realized, “Holy crap! That’s the basis for the Pelagian Heresy!” and they have just used it to push Christians toward Progressive Humanist SJW causes. These Arminian pastors don’t believe anything but to keep em scared, keep em giving, keep em working.
In Calvinism, you were saved at the foundation of the Earth and the work was done in 33 AD. The answer to the question, “Are you doing enough?” is “No, but Jesus did.” From that realization comes Christian Liberty (Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 20), which you WANT to use to do works—not because you fear the future but because you know that you are secure and you just want to show God your love for what he did...for you...personally. Churches that believe in personal salvation do not worry so much about social justice causes.
“All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.” This sound very much like the koran where allah says everybody is going to hell. It doesn’t sound like the God I worship.
Some will claim that this quote has to be read in its proper context. I have read it in its proper context and Calvin means by it exactly what it says. In the following sections he goes to great lengths to defend it against the “blasphemous” and “foolish” opposition of others.
So, it seems to me where the inquiry has to go is toward identifying how (and if?) Calvin’s double predestination differs from what Islam says about Allah.
If we say, “How can God make people for everlasting torment and not be evil?” my recollection is that the appeal will be made to the inscrutable sovereignty of God. IOW Calvin preserves God’s at the expense of knowing how he’s good.
And that’s what makes theology interesting.
Explain how those are lies.
Do you believe Spurgeon was a Calvinist?
On what scripture do you base your believe in double predestination?
Have you ever heard of Philip Johnson? Do know of Edwin Palmer?
“They had been lying to me to push their social justice, “Jesus was a Socialist” agenda! They need you to be in fear for your soul constantly to be able to keep asking you, “ARE YOU DOING ENOUGH?””
That has NOTHING to do with Arminian thought. No one in our Baptist church believes they earn salvation, or need to work for it, or need to “do enough” - because Jesus paid it all.
But that also has nothing to do with Calvinism, which teaches God does salvation TO you irresistibly, and forces one to believe and cheerfully forces another to go to hell.
Predestination has nothing to do with WHO gets saved, apart from God knowing in advance. It has to do with the destination of the saved. And those “In Christ” are predestined to become sons. Not automatons, irresistibly forced by God to do anything.
“These Arminian pastors don’t believe anything but to keep em scared, keep em giving, keep em working.”
Absolute lie. Sorry, but it is an absolute lie.
1. Do you believe that Jesus died for every human being?
• If you answered yes to the question, then at least you agree with one of the central tenets of Arminianism, and you would be generally unwelcome in Calvinist circles
• This is perhaps the most glaring issue which divides Calvinism and Arminianism
• Most Calvinists believe that Jesus died only for certain people, although there is some debate whether Calvin himself held this view
• If you believe that Jesus died only for those who would eventually believe, then you truly are a Calvinist and not an Arminian
2. Do you believe that humans are so depraved that they can do nothing to earn salvation and that they cannot choose to believe in Jesus without the intervention of God’s grace?
• If you answered yes, then you agree with Arminius and Arminianism
• Calvinists affirm the same doctrine, but often claim that Arminians do not, despite near, if not complete unanimity among Arminian theologians in affirming the doctrine
3. Do you believe that a person can resist the convicting power of God’s grace?
• If you answered yes, then again you affirm another one of the central tenets of Arminianism, as reflected in Jesus’ words, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often I have longed to gather your children together…but you were not willing” (Matt 23:37)
• Calvinists argue that God has determined which individuals will believe; to make their faith possible, he calls them to salvation in such a way that their own wills are overpowered so that they cannot possibly resist the call to salvation
• Arminians believe that God truly wants every one to believe; but when God enables a person to believe, he does so in such a way that the individual still can resist the convicting power of the Spirit–faith is not a necessary outcome of God’s enabling grace
4. Do you believe that you are born again when you put your faith in Jesus?
• If you answered yes, then you hold to a major tenet of Arminianism and you probably are not a Calvinist
• Calvinists believe that God must first give a person new life to enable faith; without first being made to share the new life, they think that a person cannot believe
• Arminians argue that people are not given the gift of the new life until they believe
• Arminians hold that when a person believes, he is united with Christ and only then does he partake of the new life and is born again; a person does not share in the new life without first being united with Christ by faith, for “whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16)
More at: http://evangelicalarminians.org/survey-are-you-an-arminian-and-dont-even-know-it-2/
I don’t believe in double predestination. It’s heresy. No, Charles Spurgeon was not a Calvinist if he didn’t adhere to Double Predestination. Calvin would have booted him out of his church.
I believe the Arminian statement of faith has a few minor errors that certainly do not put them outside the boundaries of the Christian faith.
The Canons of Dort was a response to a statement of faith by the Arminians. I have read the Arminian statement of faith; and it it not even close to what hyper-Calvinists claim it to be.
It was primarily a dispute between one groups of Dutchmen and another group of Dutchmen.
You’ve probably heard the joke that goes, “You can tell a Dutchman, but you can’t tell him much.” There is some truth to that statement.
Predestined to hell are those who choose to trust in their works. GOD said plainly that those who faithe (yes, an action word) in the One Whom God sent for our deliverance from our sins are born again, born from above, and thereafter in HIS hands for protection from destruction.
I think you misstated your intent. It appears that you intended to say that you believe in double predestination, but typed that you don't believe in it. Which is it.?
I wish FR had an edit function.
I don’t believe in it. My point and the point of the article is that many “Calvinists” do NOT believe in double predestination even though it was clearly and thoroughly taught by John Calvin. I don’t see how anyone can call themselves a Calvinist and not believe in this core doctrine of his.
• Most Calvinists believe that Jesus died only for certain people, although there is some debate whether Calvin himself held this view.
Calvin did write in his Institutes that he believed in common grace. Hyper-Calvinists don't like to hear that even when you point them to the text.
O.K. I misread your position. Thought you were a hyper-Calvinist.
Actually, Spurgeon was a Calvinist, but certainly not a hyper-Calvinist.
That’s a very helpful post. Thanks.
Showing off your Christianity?
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