Posted on 04/17/2018 8:56:07 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Have you been burned by a false prophecy? Did you lose your faith when a promised healing never came? Have you had it with flaky teaching in the name of "new revelation"? If so, you are not alone. There are more Charismatic casualties than many of us would care to admit.
But let me start here with an honest confession. My own experience in Pentecostal-Charismatic circles has been far more positive than negative. I have worked with the same leadership team for more than 20 years. I have had the privilege of serving with men and women of integrity all around the world – I'm talking about Pentecostal-Charismatic leaders around the globe.
I was saved in a Pentecostal church in 1971 and transformed by an outpouring of the Spirit in 1982. I was on the front lines of the Brownsville Revival from 1996-2000, and grads from our ministry school are bearing amazing fruit around the world. And while I have seen my share of scandals and false prophecies and leadership abuses and weirdness, it has been the exception far more than the rule.
Sadly, for many others, the opposite has proved true. For them, there is little or nothing good in the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement. They have been hurt or confused or abused, causing some to reject the move of the Spirit today and causing others to lose their faith entirely. My heart breaks over all these Charismatic casualties, and it is high time that we set our house in order.
I recently read a book critiquing the movement, and in my opinion, it was totally over the top in its criticisms.
Putting aside the scriptural errors I found in the book, it painted a terribly caricatured picture, one that was so exaggerated it was hardly recognizable to me. Yet as I read reviews to the book posted by readers, I saw that many of them were adding their hearty Amen. The picture it painted was all too familiar to them.
I'm aware, of course, that every church (or ministry or denomination or leader) has its critics. You can find horror stories everywhere, and if a church or ministry is big enough, you can find lots of negative reports from those who were allegedly burned by that church or ministry. But when you hear the same story over and over again from people from varied backgrounds, you know that something, somewhere is wrong.
When it comes to the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement, there is no shortage of amazing stories of what the Lord is doing in virtually every nation on the planet. This is truly a stunning, Jesus-exalting, multi-generational work of the Holy Spirit. I see no way to deny that for a split second.
Even more importantly, based on Scripture, I find it indisputable that the gifts and power of the Spirit are to continue in operation until Jesus returns.
But that doesn't minimize the damage that has been done in the name of the Spirit, and there are all too many casualties because of unchecked abuses. Out of love for the Lord and love for His people, we need to step higher.
Although my new book, "Playing with Holy Fire", just came out a few days ago, I'm already seeing a pattern in the reviews being posted by readers.
One reader wrote, "Dr. Michael Brown's very timely and balanced work really addressed where I am right now: disillusioned and heartbroken over the abuses of the contemporary church (this goes beyond the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement, though it is centered there). Furthermore, he encouraged my heart, showing me that I am not alone, and providing a Biblical way forward."
Another commented on Facebook that reading the book was bringing them healing from the negative experiences they had in our circles. Still another wrote, "As a former cessationist who was a cessationist BECAUSE of the abuse I saw happening in exercising the Holy Spirit's gifts, it concerns me too. Both because these abuses keep a very large section of the church away from desiring and pursuing something God wants them to have, but also because it harms our testimonies among unbelievers. This book will definitely be going to the top of my reading list!"
Other pastors and leaders are saying, "At last! These abuses needed to be addressed."
So, while I rejoice in what the Spirit is doing around the world, I grieve over the many who have been hurt and disillusioned because of human error and human sin and human carelessness. Truly, we have been given much by the Lord. And that means that much will be required of us.
May we walk worthy of the Holy Spirit's high calling. And may the name of Jesus be exalted, not tarnished, by our lives and ministries as Pentecostal and Charismatic believers.
The stakes are way too high to play games.
Joseph Smith was also a freemason, which opened him up to supernatural counterfeits; i.e. “doctrines of demons”.
Though I was not an atheist when I came to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, I also rejoice in the joy of my salvation and find that the majority of my prayers are those of thanksgiving for His blessings and for the needs of others. I will never grow weary of praising Him!
I only gave you those questions because you made a whole bunch of statements without any support, then cited a Scripture passage which, in content, is rich with demonstrated applications, of which you extracted none to support your thesis.
Your replies in this thread make it clear from your label of "Cessationist" means that the reader must infer that The Holy Ghost has ceased working through and with Christ-followers who know that their power with men and with God does not depend on meaningless babbling, no matter how passionate and/or sincere; who know that trying to guide the disciple(s) by intuitive prophesies for which they have no explicit scriptural grounding; or whoever thinks that a spiritual gift of reading someone else's mind or predicting his/her future by a word-of-knowledge accessible at one's beck and call; all these suggesting the God is subject to your whim.
I know what y'all are after. It is to gain instant spirituality and instant holiness and instant lovingness at the moment a second-touch "baptism in the Spirit" occurs, without going through the kind of progressive growth that Jesus subjected his selected and recruited volunteers to in a rabbinical schooling to prepare them for the greatest occupation ever offered to humans.
It was in Heshvan (December) of A.D.29 that Jesus' public ministry began, if which a part of it was to begin buildinf trust with various humans from which he recruited and baptize-inducted into boot camp the disciples who were willing to commit permanent trust in Him.
But it was not until Tammuz (July) of A,D,31 that His final slate of the chosen twelve enrolled students was made public (and one was a devil). Then it was a further four months (until the month of Heshvan A.D. 31) of personally supervised advance training by word and example before He sent them out with limited spiritual powers to proclaim repentance in preparation for the imminent Kingdom of Heaven; to heal chronic infirmity, and cast out demons with prayer.
-- Was glossolalia a prerequisite to their commissioning? No. Was baptizing believers into discipleship a part of their outreach program? Yes.
-- Were people at that time regenerated by the water-baptism-into-repentance rite? No.
-- Were thousands of people being readied for the coming of The Holy Ghost on Penteost Day of A.D. 33? Yes.
-- Were these gifts of prophesying, healing, and exorcism the proof to observers that they were genuine ordained disciples sent out by the Messiah? Yes. And that is why these special, beneficial temporarily-given powers were given to them for the purpose of validating that these powers were delegated by the Anointed (HaMesshiah, Christos) of The God Jehovah.
-- Are those spiritual powers/gifts widely given and implemented by the general Christ-followers today, at the beck and call of every individual believer today? No.
-- Has God put His Holy Spirit into the position of being unconditionally subject to the whimsical demands of fallible humans today? I do not believe so. -- What is the basis of that power from The God and His Son? It is the gift of the Indwelling Holy Spirit baptizing the believer into the Body of Christ at the very moment that the repentant, faithful, contrite, meek heart of the believer appeals to The Father, and simultaneously receives the gracious gifts of salvation, justification, Everlasting Absolute Life, and initiation into a life of a sanctifying determined life of discipleship.
At this moment of salvation the true believer receives all of the Person of The Holy Spirit, not just a fragment with more to come piecemeal-wise. There is one birth in/of the Spirit, but many fillings, and the validating manifestation of a changed person that is no longer given over to a sinful lifestyle.
Now, this is just the first segment of a reply to your (error-filled) quasi-"charismatic" screed; with more to come if The LORD permits and I am able and Spirit-informed in His Word.
However the Book of Mormon came about, Joe Smith was a fruitcake, and a false prophet. He will not do well at the great white throne.
That’s pretty much what I always thought, that the moment of salvation, is the time one receives all of the Holy Spirit, one will EVER get. I call that, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but the filling of the spirit, happens throughout one’s life. Just my opinion, but I think our rewards in Heaven, are for all the times we were filled with the Holy Spirit. Just an opinion.
? You seem to have a difficult time recognizing there are three distinct “dispensations” in the timeline of Judeo Christianity up until now.
1. The Old Covenant under the Law
2. The limited time, of “transition” between the Old and New Covenants, of Christ’s earthly ministry.
3. The New Covenant that began at the Cross/Ascension/Pentecost. “It is finished!” and then the Curtain in the Temple was torn in half by God supernaturally. And then Christ instructed the necessity of leaving the earth: “I must go to the Father” for the Holy Spirit to come.
There was no speaking in tongues for the disciples before the Cross, if that’s your bugaboo.
But it sounds like you either don’t believe Peter actually was speaking in tongues at Pentecost, or that he was “babbling” instead of fulfilling that which the Prophet Joel had writtenl? Are you like the scoffers at the time, who presumed Peter was drunk and “babbling”?
I only agree with Paul: some speak in tongues. Not all. Just like Peter did. And just as John the Baptists’ disciples did. Was it all “babbling” then?
You’re just upset because I am a charismatic, spirit filled believer who is outraged at the heresies of the charismatic Church, and I know how to discern the spirits behind their false prophets and false teachings.
As to “instant spirituality”, I don’t know what your vague complaint even means. Unless we “pick up our Cross daily and deny self” we cannot be His disciples, whether we speak in tongues or prophesy or have the discernment of spirits or have dreams and visions or not.
You’re just mad because you can’t give one Old Testament scripture to support your idea that some Gifts “ceased” at the time the canon of Scripture was sealed.
Now go repent of your sin of attempting to squelch the Spirit and “despising (new testament) prophecy” while falsely accusing the brethren of some phony crime of taking the Lord at His Word that all of the Gifts are for today.
This includes but is not dependent upon everyone speaking in tongues or being a prophet, though again Paul admonishes “all to be ambitious to prophesy.”
Joseph Smith also had a vision of a Pentagram, and this is why there are Pentagrams on every Mormon Temple
Not only do we receive all of the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation, but we are also sealed with the Spirit. The calling and gifts of the Spirit are irrevocable and He puts His imprint or seal on us as a sign of the done deal...
I am not upset. Why? BecauseY I am a truly charismatic, spirit filled believer who is outraged at the heresies of the charismatic Church, and I know how to discern the spirits behind their false prophets and false teachings, especially yours. I know that you serially undertyake false assumptions, pretending to read my mind, my intents, and my relationship with my Heavenly Father and His Son. If you are upset, it is because you've been spotted, called out, and you erroneous suppositions refuted.
And I know that Jesus work was not finished when he cried out, "Tetelestai!" -- "It stands finished."
Do you know what "It" is? And what He had yet to do to complete His Work?
Your opinion is a certainty, according to Scripture and according to God’s attributes.
And I’ll try not to take umbrage at your patronizing tone.
Don't mind if you do. Your choice.
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Um kay. Be well.
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Its not really a question of when the gifts are for, but if they are posessed by those that profess them.
Everybody wants to be Henry Gruber, but the HS is pickey.
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This is really very, very good!
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>> “You’ll have to do better than that verse, but get a point for trying.” <<
Ding!
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Who’s Henry Gruber?
As metmom described earlier in this thread, the issue might be that some lord their gifts over others, as if having these Gifts makes you closer to God.
Having the manifest gifts of the Holy Spirit does NOT make one closer to God or superior to others, in any way.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Peter spoke, but the Bible does not say he was speaking in tongues, it states that these several different national representatives heard each in his own language. IOW, the Holy Spirit was taking Peter's words, probably in Hebrew or Aramaic, and putting the message in the language each of the listeners needed, or placing the message directly in their minds. Don't believe me? Go read the passage again. You are in error.
How much more error are you dragging around in pride?
That is an excellent observation and the truth of it is abundantly observable today. Our faith GROWS as we grow in grace, but it is a process that cannot be rushed:
1. Because the canon of Scripture was sealed after the 1st Century . . .
It's good that you agree with this. Hopefully we won't have to revisit this issue. Going on:
. . . does not make a case that the gifts given at Pentecost (or the gifts that particularly offend modern-day Cessationists) somehow were stopped at that time . . .
Actually, three of the gifts enumerated in 1 Cor. 12 ceased. Of prophecies, there were two kinds, the first being the inscripturated apostolic doctrines preached by the legitimate Prophet authors until their deaths; and the other being prophetic utterances of individuals in Christian assemblies, claiming the authority of divine revelations, but found to be false through spiritual discernment, and thus discarded and abolished (2 Thess. 2:2,15).
As to the word of knowledge, it pertained to circumstances when Paul, not by natural intelligence, but by Spiritual hindering or prescient knowledge of where and where not to journey, or visions of what was going to happen. One example was the knowledge given to Paul by Agabus (Acts 21:10-11). Another was the revelation to Cornelius (Acts 10:2-7) involving Peter (Acts 10:19-20). This knowledge of the shaping of the churches and the inclusion of Gentiles into the Body of Christ was peculiar to the Apostles and apostolic Fathers, not to be carried on beyond the formative stages when the God-appointed Apostolic overseers passed on.
Looking at "tongues" (= figurative-literal term for languages or dialects), there are two kinds: one is languages that orally communicate useful information to someone which is understood; and the other (only described once, and that in 1 Cor. 14:2 alone) communicates no useful information to anyone, not even himself. And Paul dealt with it once and for all: If there is no one who can interpret it (and because no man can understand it, there won't be), do not bring it into the congregated assembly. Any other "tongues" are information-rich, and when yhe sense is spiritually inclined and able to be orally translated by a go-between interpreter in a language of the target audience, then it may be permitted. But the advice is not to make this a regular large portion of the assembly-time.
For myself, in my early days when I was persuaded by well-meaning luminaries like David Wilkerson abd Pat Robertson, by sincere but misdirected faith I engaged in "speaking in tongues," which to me sounded as if it had word-like sounds; but when, though I persisted in it beyond a reasonable years-long effort. I found that intelligent study of the Itelligent Designer brought a closer, more soul-satisfying development of fellowship with the Lord, so I put away that childish thing and accepted that a Spiritual man's occupation was in the Word where the Spirit speaks to both the mind and the heart with useful information. That's the path I would recommend to anyone. Without condemning anyone, I just leave the childish things to the spiritual infants who are weak in The Faith, and go on to perfection.
People in the spiritually mature classification of a vibrant assembly do not waste time trying to revive the meaningless babbleolatry that never had use even at the time some Corinthians were trying to broker a wedding between their mystery cults and the supernaturally cemented building of human living stones called "The Way," and later, "the ekklesia." Of course, as it spread and people of other ethnicity and dialects became constituents, enough vernacular translations (Origen, Eusebius, Jerome), were made available so that oral translation became less and less instrumental in propagating The Faith, and the statist church overwhelmed the Scriptural local assemblies, and the gratuitou speaking of different dialects faded.
. . . unless you believe God had some fancy reason to show off lots of signs and wonders in the 1st century church, and then put the brakes on for the rest of church history.
There are no brakes for the committed Christian. Having a secure and productive relationship with the Mighty God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and a firm grasp of His Perfect, Finished, fully elaborated Will, a true Spirit-filled human needs no "charismatic" (so called) charletranly to prop his/her faith up.
You can quit the "Nyah nyah" retorts now, for it adds nothing for your cause, and is too puerile to answer henceforth.
Without explanation.
I have given my explanations to you and elsewhere upthread, so stop whining.
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I am humbled by your attribution. perhaps some day my Captain will bestow that kind of perception on beggars like myself. Until that day, Maranatha!
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