Posted on 01/07/2018 1:17:40 PM PST by tiredofallofit
But that chain of authority is often not so clear in the church world, especially amongst non-denominational evangelicals. If a man or woman steps up behind a pulpit and speaks to us authoritatively on matters of theology, why do we automatically accept this authority? Is it because we like what we hear? Or do we validate the authority because the pastor’s interpretation of the Bible jives with our own understanding? But who are we to even make that judgement? Why is our interpretation of the Bible any better than the person sitting next to us on the pew? And if we disagree with an aspect of the pastor’s views, do we have a right to question him? Or do we have to accept what he says because we have already consented to his authority?
(Excerpt) Read more at runningawayfrommychurch.com ...
I never said you were.
You can relax some yourself.
My post was directed towards the other poster and you were courtesy pinged.
Maybe you should learn how FR works before jumping the gun and going down someone’s throat over something they didn’t say or imply.
It’s like when you describe an accident scene and use pictures.
You say, *This is my car, and this is the other guy’s car* about a pencil drawing.
Now, it’s clear to anyone with two functioning brain cells, that they are not real cars.
Catholics continue to ignore John 6:63 where Jesus says *the SPIRIT gives life, the the flesh is NO help at all*
And the fact that their interpretation renders Jesus a sinner by commanding people to break the law, thus making Him no longer eligible to be the spotless lamb of God. He would likewise have sinned at the Last Supper,with the same result.
And He would be contradicting the entire weight of Scripture, which PROVES that that literal interpretation is wrong.
And the fact that Jesus at the Last Supper called the cup *the fruit of the vine*, which He said HE would not drink again until in heaven.
So many fails on so many points.
And then WE get accused of *cherry picking* and building entire doctrines on ONE verse of Scripture.
It doesn’t matter what people believed for 1500 years.
They can believe error for that long.
Witness Hinduism, Confucisim, islam, Zoroastrianism, ..........
What matters is it if contradicts Scripture, which the command to eat blood does.
Forgot to add, that Peter HIMSELF stated in Acts 10 that he had never eaten anything unclean. That would mean that he DID NOT eat flesh and blood at the Last Supper, that he recognized that it was symbolic. If he hadn’t then he would have refused to eat.
If he did indeed think it was literal flesh and blood, then Jesus sinned, Jesus forced others to sin, and Peter is a liar in Acts 10.
Isn’t personal interpretation, kind of like being my own pope? I am perfectly capable of personal interpretation. Others will try to say they don’t interpret scripture. They just read it and tell me what it says. 😆 You don’t know anyone like that, do you?
You know, from what I can precisely figure out here, that when Gabriel blows his horn, a lot of people will end up in the Lake of Fire, who thought somehow they would make it to Heaven. What a shock it will be to them. I have no intention of getting caught holding the bag. If others do.....well, that’s on them.
Ex Catholic here too. There is no small number of us. I was 21, and in the USAF, when I realized I had been sold a bill of goods, my whole life. I egressed the RCC and never looked back. (Egress=the opposite of ingress) 😆
I rather like having assurance of salvation, even if some think that is the sin of presumption. 😀😆😄
I will tell you what is wrong with these folks. Unregenerate man CANNOT understand spiritual truth. People involved in false religions, don’t understand spiritual truth either.
1st Corinthians 1:18. “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”
Isn't it interesting that out of the John 6 passage, they insist and demand that verses 53-56 be taken literally and that it's real flesh and blood that must be eaten?
But in verses 35, 51, and 58 where He calls Himself the Bread as in *I AM the bread*, they don't go around insisting that Jesus was made out of bread dough or wheat flour.
They selectively choose what is literal and what is figurative on a word by word within on passage.
Their biggest problem is, the literal interpretation, which is not even supported within the passage itself, conflicts with the rest of Scripture, therefore CANNOT be correct as Scripture will never contradict itself.
The interpretation that the language is figurative, fits in beautifully not only with Scripture, as there's NO conflict whatsoever with the Law or any other command in Scripture, and it's the exact same teaching style Jesus uses with the crowds where ever He goes.
I agree with you MM, but I want to know what is their plan of salvation? How are they going to escape the wrath to come?
Hi FatherofFive,
I’ve been reading your posts. You seem to be sincere in some of them, so I thought I would give it a try even knowing that the others posting here are far more equipped to explain it than am I. Metmom posted applicable scripture that should have shed some light on it for you, but it’s not easy when we’ve been taught something and believed it for so long. Core beliefs are hard to change. Core beliefs can be set in a person early and can be almost impossible to change later. (Think, Yuri Besmenov’s statement on brainwashed people. Not saying that you are brainwashed, just making the point about core beliefs. If you don’t remember anything else from this post, please remember that bit. Tuck it away for later use.) I know this personally and all too well. Had a lot of my own that had to be changed.
First, I don’t want an argument with you. I’m only taking time to respond because I think you may be sincere. Any arguing or name calling and I’m out. Too tired for all that.
Jesus IS The Passover Lamb, but He’s not a lamb. He’s the metaphoric Passover Lamb. He, His body, is the Passover sacrifice. All physical sacrifices and throughout all Israel’s history pointed to Him being sacrificed on the cross. The Sacrifice. In order to make the text say what you’re trying to make it say, you would have to render His being into a literal lamb at some point.
So, He’s holding bread and breaking it with His disciples. Says, this is My body; take and eat. (Forgive, please, any errors in my quotes.) Now, just ask yourself if He took a piece from His physical body … OR, did He give them a piece of bread He was holding in His hands?
See, it’s Jesus’ own words that make the act symbolic. It doesn’t get any more symbolic than that.
When He told them that He would not drink of the fruit of the vine until after reunion with them, was He drinking – at that point – His own blood or was He drinking wine? (And this gets into the whole Jewish wedding ceremony, which is such a fantastic and beautiful study that makes the whole scene come alive!)
See, again, He is the One making the act symbolic. He’s doing it Himself. Doesn’t matter what you or I or anyone else says; only matters what He says. You see? Are your eyes open? What is Jesus actually and literally feeding His disciples? What is He handing them to consume?
To think that a Jew, which there’s no argument Jesus certainly IS, would consume blood is horrifying. That’s so contradictory to Scripture – all over the map and you can’t miss it – that I don’t think I can say anything more than what Metmom has already posted, which is very clear scripture copied straight from the Bible.
It’s the same as Water for the Word, stars for angels, etc. You can’t read the Bible without seeing similes, types, metaphors, etc., all over it. There’s no way to do it. God chose that way for His own purposes and it has, in my own extremely humble opinion, helped to keep the Word preserved for lo these many thousands of years now. I’m sure you’ve heard people speak of the Bible this way: “That crazy book about locusts coming out of the ground and men riding horses out the sky! That Book?!?” There are at least 4 layers to any one Book of the Bible. That’s at minimum. Ask a Jew about the Torah. They’ll tell you, more than 50 layers!
Jesus is also the Door, the Branch, the Water, the Wine, the Bread, and on and on and on, but all metaphorically speaking.
He’s putting the spiritual IN the physical for our benefit. We can’t understand spiritual things without them being put in the physical for us because we are physical beings. There is no other way.
I hope some of what’s above will help you see and I post in good faith, FatherofFive. Hope it helps. Like I stated above, I had my own false beliefs that I was dead sure of that I had to overcome. Everyone has been misled to some degree or another. God gives us the truth in His word. I had to change my thinking according to His word, rather than change His word according to my thinking. Had to learn the hard way that it’s about a personal relationship with Our Lord rather than a religion. He’s not a religion, He’s a person. He’s the Only One Who Can Save and it takes a personal relationship with Him on His terms, not on some religion’s terms.
You know, “eyes to see and ears to hear?” You know what that means. It means having a spiritual understanding of the physical that’s in the Bible. You know, too, “now these things are hidden ...” etc. It takes spiritual eyes to see (understand), otherwise man is left with religion which is a physical thing that can save not one soul. Jesus Himself said that God must be worshiped in … long robes, decorative chalices, golden arches … No. Wait! He said God must be worshiped in SPIRIT and in truth. People can do all the religious stuff they please and it gets them not one inch closer to salvation in Christ.
Can’t recall who said it but it’s so true:
“Religion is man’s attempt to reconcile himself to God. Jesus (crucified) is God’s only way to reconcile man unto Himself.” Something like that. I like it. And it’s a fact, Jack.
I would strongly urge you to sit quietly and read for yourself the Book of John. Don’t go to any commentaries, just let the text speak, and clear away any preconceived notions. You’ll see for yourself, I hope.
Best to you and yours.
(Metmom & Mark17: Your answers were better and hit the bullseye. Can never go wrong with Scripture. PLEASE correct anything above that you see is wrong. Brain is tired on top of being stupid, and some of the few cells I have upstairs are having trouble waking this morning!)
The problem is they glom on to the non-Catholic churches that do not practice Sola Scriptura as examples why Sola Scriptura doesn’t work.
The Redding church is just another example of those who abandon Scripture for their own traditions...
The second key to finding truth is to apply the scientific method to the research.
*Question the assumption.
*Reverse the hypothesis.
*See if you can prove the inverse of your theory.
How seldom do humans question their beliefs or hold them up to examination?
Of course, this implies effort - that is required of believers.
"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Timothy 2:15"And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Luke 10:27
I’ll address the many points you make.
In order to make the text say what you’re trying to make it say, you would have to render His being into a literal lamb at some point.
Why?
Now, just ask yourself if He took a piece from His physical body … OR, did He give them a piece of bread He was holding in His hands?
The word became flesh. Why do you not believe the bread became flesh? This IS My body. Why doubt the literal words of Scripture?
See, it’s Jesus’ own words that make the act symbolic.
it is literal. You believe it to be symbolic. Christ said we need to eat His flesh to achieve eternal life. He gave us the ability to eat his flesh by establishing the Eucharist. Turning bread into his body
See, again, He is the One making the act symbolic.
Was the wine at Canna real or symbolic? It was real. He turned water into wine. He turned bread into his body. He turned wine into his blood. Why is that so difficult to understand?
I would strongly urge you to sit quietly and read for yourself the Book of John. Don’t go to any commentaries, just let the text speak, and clear away any preconceived notions. You’ll see for yourself, I hope.
Yes. Listen to your own words. Let the text speak. “This is My Body.” That speaks very clearly. It means the bread becomes His Body. You have to DENY the clear words of to believe what you believe.
Amazing. You are denying Scripture is literal, and means whatever you want it to mean. So I believe the words of Scripture "This is My Body" mean this is my body. You believe it to mean "this is a cookie" Impossible to have a discussion about Scripture when you can change the meaning of the words of Scripture
So how do you understand this part of Scripture? Or do you just ignore it, because it doesn't align with your man made beliefs?
Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. John 6:53
But you say Scripture is not literal, so what does it matter?
They do at that.
Thanks for putting it so succinctly.
Or this one......
Matthew 23: 8-10 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.
and suddenly literal interpretations are out the window so fast your head spins.
Jesus gave them bread, did He not? Or did He hand then a chunk of raw, bloody flesh to eat at the Last Supper?
It matters because even if all of Scripture were figurative, it still must be internally consistent, and claiming that Jesus demands the eating of human flesh and drinking of human blood, which is cannibalism, it contradicts the rest of Scripture.
Besides, I didn’t say all Scripture was not literal.
You really need to stop making false accusations.
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