Hi FatherofFive,
I’ve been reading your posts. You seem to be sincere in some of them, so I thought I would give it a try even knowing that the others posting here are far more equipped to explain it than am I. Metmom posted applicable scripture that should have shed some light on it for you, but it’s not easy when we’ve been taught something and believed it for so long. Core beliefs are hard to change. Core beliefs can be set in a person early and can be almost impossible to change later. (Think, Yuri Besmenov’s statement on brainwashed people. Not saying that you are brainwashed, just making the point about core beliefs. If you don’t remember anything else from this post, please remember that bit. Tuck it away for later use.) I know this personally and all too well. Had a lot of my own that had to be changed.
First, I don’t want an argument with you. I’m only taking time to respond because I think you may be sincere. Any arguing or name calling and I’m out. Too tired for all that.
Jesus IS The Passover Lamb, but He’s not a lamb. He’s the metaphoric Passover Lamb. He, His body, is the Passover sacrifice. All physical sacrifices and throughout all Israel’s history pointed to Him being sacrificed on the cross. The Sacrifice. In order to make the text say what you’re trying to make it say, you would have to render His being into a literal lamb at some point.
So, He’s holding bread and breaking it with His disciples. Says, this is My body; take and eat. (Forgive, please, any errors in my quotes.) Now, just ask yourself if He took a piece from His physical body … OR, did He give them a piece of bread He was holding in His hands?
See, it’s Jesus’ own words that make the act symbolic. It doesn’t get any more symbolic than that.
When He told them that He would not drink of the fruit of the vine until after reunion with them, was He drinking – at that point – His own blood or was He drinking wine? (And this gets into the whole Jewish wedding ceremony, which is such a fantastic and beautiful study that makes the whole scene come alive!)
See, again, He is the One making the act symbolic. He’s doing it Himself. Doesn’t matter what you or I or anyone else says; only matters what He says. You see? Are your eyes open? What is Jesus actually and literally feeding His disciples? What is He handing them to consume?
To think that a Jew, which there’s no argument Jesus certainly IS, would consume blood is horrifying. That’s so contradictory to Scripture – all over the map and you can’t miss it – that I don’t think I can say anything more than what Metmom has already posted, which is very clear scripture copied straight from the Bible.
It’s the same as Water for the Word, stars for angels, etc. You can’t read the Bible without seeing similes, types, metaphors, etc., all over it. There’s no way to do it. God chose that way for His own purposes and it has, in my own extremely humble opinion, helped to keep the Word preserved for lo these many thousands of years now. I’m sure you’ve heard people speak of the Bible this way: “That crazy book about locusts coming out of the ground and men riding horses out the sky! That Book?!?” There are at least 4 layers to any one Book of the Bible. That’s at minimum. Ask a Jew about the Torah. They’ll tell you, more than 50 layers!
Jesus is also the Door, the Branch, the Water, the Wine, the Bread, and on and on and on, but all metaphorically speaking.
He’s putting the spiritual IN the physical for our benefit. We can’t understand spiritual things without them being put in the physical for us because we are physical beings. There is no other way.
I hope some of what’s above will help you see and I post in good faith, FatherofFive. Hope it helps. Like I stated above, I had my own false beliefs that I was dead sure of that I had to overcome. Everyone has been misled to some degree or another. God gives us the truth in His word. I had to change my thinking according to His word, rather than change His word according to my thinking. Had to learn the hard way that it’s about a personal relationship with Our Lord rather than a religion. He’s not a religion, He’s a person. He’s the Only One Who Can Save and it takes a personal relationship with Him on His terms, not on some religion’s terms.
You know, “eyes to see and ears to hear?” You know what that means. It means having a spiritual understanding of the physical that’s in the Bible. You know, too, “now these things are hidden ...” etc. It takes spiritual eyes to see (understand), otherwise man is left with religion which is a physical thing that can save not one soul. Jesus Himself said that God must be worshiped in … long robes, decorative chalices, golden arches … No. Wait! He said God must be worshiped in SPIRIT and in truth. People can do all the religious stuff they please and it gets them not one inch closer to salvation in Christ.
Can’t recall who said it but it’s so true:
“Religion is man’s attempt to reconcile himself to God. Jesus (crucified) is God’s only way to reconcile man unto Himself.” Something like that. I like it. And it’s a fact, Jack.
I would strongly urge you to sit quietly and read for yourself the Book of John. Don’t go to any commentaries, just let the text speak, and clear away any preconceived notions. You’ll see for yourself, I hope.
Best to you and yours.
(Metmom & Mark17: Your answers were better and hit the bullseye. Can never go wrong with Scripture. PLEASE correct anything above that you see is wrong. Brain is tired on top of being stupid, and some of the few cells I have upstairs are having trouble waking this morning!)
I’ll address the many points you make.
In order to make the text say what you’re trying to make it say, you would have to render His being into a literal lamb at some point.
Why?
Now, just ask yourself if He took a piece from His physical body … OR, did He give them a piece of bread He was holding in His hands?
The word became flesh. Why do you not believe the bread became flesh? This IS My body. Why doubt the literal words of Scripture?
See, it’s Jesus’ own words that make the act symbolic.
it is literal. You believe it to be symbolic. Christ said we need to eat His flesh to achieve eternal life. He gave us the ability to eat his flesh by establishing the Eucharist. Turning bread into his body
See, again, He is the One making the act symbolic.
Was the wine at Canna real or symbolic? It was real. He turned water into wine. He turned bread into his body. He turned wine into his blood. Why is that so difficult to understand?
I would strongly urge you to sit quietly and read for yourself the Book of John. Don’t go to any commentaries, just let the text speak, and clear away any preconceived notions. You’ll see for yourself, I hope.
Yes. Listen to your own words. Let the text speak. “This is My Body.” That speaks very clearly. It means the bread becomes His Body. You have to DENY the clear words of to believe what you believe.