Posted on 11/17/2017 3:03:09 PM PST by ebb tide
As an outsider, I can’t help but wonder whether the pope and the USCCB were particularly provoked by Weinandy’s suggestion that Jesus had allowed this controversy in order “to manifest just how weak is the faith of many within the Church, even among too many of her bishops.” Catholics will have to make up their own minds—but I’ll admit I have questions about the faith of Pope Francis, which seems, if not weak, at least different from that of the Catholic tradition.
Even before the release of Amoris Laetitia in March 2016, Francis had caused many to question his fidelity to that tradition. In 2014, the midterm report of the Extraordinary Synod on the Family recommended that pastors emphasize the “positive aspects” of cohabitation and civil remarriage after divorce. He said that Jesus’s multiplication of bread and fish was really a miracle of sharing, not of multiplying (2013); told a woman in an invalid marriage that she could take Holy Communion (2014); claimed that lost souls do not go to hell (2015); and said that Jesus had begged his parents for forgiveness (2015). In 2016, he said that God had been “unjust with his son,” announced his prayer intention to build a society “that places the human person at the center,” and declared that inequality is “the greatest evil that exists.” In 2017, he joked that “inside the Holy Trinity they’re all arguing behind closed doors, but on the outside they give the picture of unity.” Jesus Christ, he said, “made himself the devil.” “No war is just,” he pronounced. At the end of history, “everything will be saved. Everything.”
Weinandy and other Catholic critics have pointed to alarming statements and suggestions in Amoris Laetitia itself. The exhortation declares, “No one can be condemned for ever, because that is not the logic of the Gospel!” In December 2016, the Catholic philosophers John Finnis and Germain Grisez argued in their “Misuse of Amoris Laetitia” that though this statement reflects a trend among Catholic thinkers stemming from Karl Rahner and Hans Urs von Balthasar, it contradicts the gospels’ clear statements and the Catholic tradition’s teaching that there is “unending punishment” in hell. Finnis and Grisez charge that, according to the logic of Amoris Laetitia, some of the faithful are too weak to keep God’s commandments, and can live in grace while committing ongoing and habitual sins “in grave matter.” Like (Episcopalian) Joseph Fletcher, who taught Situation Ethics in the 1960s, the exhortation suggests that there are exceptions to every moral rule and that there is no such thing as an intrinsically evil act.
I take no pleasure in Rome’s travails. For decades, orthodox Anglicans and other Protestants seeking to resist the apostasies of liberal Christianity have looked to Rome for moral and theological support. Most of us recognized that we were really fighting the sexual revolution, which had coopted and corrupted the Episcopal Church and its parent across the pond. First it was the sanctity of life and euthanasia. Then it was homosexual practice. Now it is gay marriage and transgender ideology. During the pontificates of John Paul II and Benedict XVI, we non-Catholics arguing moral theology could point to learned and compelling arguments coming out of Rome and say, in effect, “The oldest and largest part of the Body of Christ agrees with us, and it does so with remarkable sophistication.”
Those of us who continue to fight for orthodoxy, in dogmatic as well as moral theology, miss those days when there was a clear beacon shining from across the Tiber. For now, it seems, Rome itself has been infiltrated by the sexual revolution. The center is not holding.
Though we are dismayed, we must not despair. For the brave and principled stand made by Tom Weinandy reminds us that God raises up prophetic lights when dark days come to his Church.
Gerald McDermott holds the Anglican Chair of Divinity at Beeson Divinity School.
Say it all you want; he WAS baptized Catholic. Can’t undo THAT; can you!
I know zero, at least at the moment, about who this guy is, but, generally speaking, someone can be one thing 'technically' yet be something very different at heart. Perfect example, Obama and his communist ilk infiltrators, technically being Americans.
Going to another thread alert!!
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3600670/replies?c=133
ebb has been calling Francis a Prot for some time now.
He just happened to find a convenient article to post about it. So regardless of whether the author questions the pope being a Catholics, it could easily be seen as useful ammo in Prot bashing.
If that’s what you think, why do you continue to bite?
There’s no indication that he was ever an American in the first place, even technically.
But we keep being told that *Once a Catholic, always a Catholic* and that being baptized into Catholicism leaves an indelible mark on one’s soul.
And now y’all are claiming he’s not a “real” Catholic.
Y’all can not like him as much as you want, but you can’t have it both ways.
Another unanswered question.
Sorry, pal.....elsie has that market cornered. Get a new gig.
This is true, not because there is an Interregnum, which in the past has lasted up to 3 years IIRC, but because this is used despite there being a validly elected Pope or Popes isn't really THE Pope.
But don't Sedevacanists dispute every Pope AFTER Pope Pius XII who died in 1958?
Ebb Tide has simply refused t tell us who he considers was the last validly elected Pope despite repeated requests, so I highly doubt you will get a clear answer from him here. But see 241.
I never said that. I said up front I didn't know anything about him. I simply said, with words to the effect, that someone, GENERALLY SPEAKING, could conceivable be one thing on paper and be something entirely different in reality. I have no idea even who this guy being referred to is.
Because the claim is patently false and if nobody challenges it, then people are going to think it’s true.
It’s not.
Frank is a Catholic. Maybe he ACTS like a liberal Prot, but he is the pope of the Catholic church, selected and elected according to official Catholic procedure by the College of Cardinals.
That makes him both Catholic and yours, like him or not, until such time as some similar official action is taken to de-pope him.
Until that time, Unum Sanctum demands and requires you all to be in submission to your pope. Not a choice for you. Especially if the pope who decreed it is an official, valid pope.
If Frank is who the College of Cardinals decides is your pope, that’s THEIR decision to make, not yours. Your only option as Catholics, is to submit to him by ex cathedra decree.
Right ET?
Jorge Bergoglio (one of those 'once an indelibly marked Roman Catholic, always an indelibly marked Roman Catholic') could go to priest and have all his questions answered.
Ain't that right, Sal?
Sal? helloo-oo.
To be clear, I, personally, know next to nothing about the distinctions between a Protestant and a Catholic. All I know is that I see some potentially dangerous things going on within the Vatican, in terms of a hard shift to the left, along with a budding collaboration with the Russian Orthodox Church, the "largest member of the World Council of Churches", an organization notoriously known for their strong pro-communist stance.
Please refer to my earlier posts on the thread regarding the WCC, the Russian Orthodox Church, Pope Francis and communist-concocted Liberation Theology. Posts 21, 31, 36, 40, and especially 48.
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.
There are no admonitions or examples in the New Testament of praying to the departed saints.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
We are not called upon to believe in the "one holy catholic and apostolic Church" in the New Testament.
We are to believe in Christ.
In communion with those whose memory we venerate, especially the glorious ever-Virgin Mary, Mother of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ, and blessed Joseph, her Spouse, your blessed Apostles and Martyrs, Peter and Paul, Andrew, (James, John, Thomas, James, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Simon and Jude; Linus, Cletus, Clement, Sixtus, Cornelius, Cyprian, Lawrence, Chrysogonus, John and Paul, Cosmas and Damian) and all your Saints; we ask that through their merits and prayers, in all things we may be defended by your protecting help.
The definition of venerate and worship has been oft debated as to how Roman Catholics and Christians view the kneeling, praying to, invoking of Mary.
However, in either case relying upon their merits and prayers or appealing to their merits and prayers, as they are deceased from an earthly perspective is not substantiated by the New Testament.
We don't have any examples of believers on earth praying to those who have departed this world nor invoking their name in prayers or praying to them for assistance. All prayer is directed to God and God alone.
Lord Jesus Christ, Only Begotten Son, Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us; you take away the sins of the world, receive our prayer; you are seated at the right hand of the Father, have mercy on us.
Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father. However, what Roman Catholic priest O'Brien writes about in the Faith of Millions is that in the Mass, the priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal Victim for the sins of man—not once but a thousand times!
This goes back to my original post on this that the underlying concept of the Mass is not Scripturaly sound based on this understanding of what the priest is doing.
The whole process of the Mass where the priest stands before the altar offering sacrifices is reminiscent of the OT system of sacrifices which was negated for necessity of forgiveness by the one time sacrifice of Christ on the Cross.
10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. Hebrews 10:10-14 NASB
There is more that can be said but you requested a S-I-N-G-L-E line in the Mass that is not based on the Bible.
https://universalis.com/static/mass/orderofmass.htm
Tell you what....they make a mess of the board!
I think it was the alcohol getting to him/her. Wondering if the hangover has worn off yet.
To: ebb tide; aMorePerfectUnion; ealgeone; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; boatbums; CynicalBear; daniel1212; ...
Francis is not a Protestant.
He’s a Catholic, elected by the Catholic church college of cardinals to fill the highest position within the Catholic church.
Like it or not, he’s all yours.
You can try to disown him, but that isn’t going to fly unless there’s an official action of the Catholic chruch to ex-communicate him.
So, the question remains, does the Holy Spirit guide the college of cardinals in the selection and election of the new pope? Simple question that just needs a simply *Yes* or *No* answer.
88 posted on 11/17/2017, 7:46:18 PM by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith..) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies | Report Abuse]
To which ebb replied:
To: metmom
No. And He never has.
Otherwise all elections would have occurred on this first vote with an unanimous decision.
94 posted on 11/17/2017, 7:55:33 PM by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 88 | View Replies | Report Abuse]
So we finally have ebb on record as saying the selection of the pope is not guided by the Holy Spirit.
I wonder if his fellow (?) Roman Catholics agree with him?
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