Posted on 09/02/2017 7:03:37 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
About half of Protestants in the U.S. now agree with the "historically Catholic belief" that both faith and good deeds are needed for salvation, rather than faith alone, a Pew Research Center survey shows.
White Evangelicals stood out as the strongest believers in faith alone, however.
Pew, which released the survey to mark the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, explored different questions, though one of the main focuses was on the requirements for salvation.
Fifty-two percent of U.S. Protestants said both good deeds and faith in God are needed to get into heaven; 46 percent said faith alone (sola fide) is needed. Among Catholics, 81 percent agreed that both good deeds and faith are necessary. Meanwhile, two-thirds of white evangelicals said they believe faith alone is needed for salvation.
(Catholics argue that "faith and works" is a misleading oversimplification of their beliefs.)
Protestants were similarly split on the Reformation principle of sola scriptura (which means that Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian), with 46 percent saying the Bible provides all the religious guidance Christians need and 52 percent saying Christians need guidance from church teachings and traditions in addition to the Bible. Among white evangelicals, nearly 60 percent agreed with the principle of sola sciptura.
Overall, only 30 percent of Protestants, 7 percent of Catholics and 44 percent of white evangelicals believe in both sola fide and sola scriptura.
The data for the poll was collected between May 30 and August 9, sampling 5,198 respondents, with the questions split in two forms. Pew noted that the margin of sampling error for both halves of respondents was plus or minus 2.9 percentage points.
Some respondents were asked to answer the question of what is needed to get into heaven in their own words. Common responses to this open-ended question included belief in Jesus and being born again (32 percent); being a good person, moral values and doing good works (19 percent of all Christians); repentance and asking forgiveness for sins (12 percent); and belief in God (11 percent).
In other findings, Christians were largely split on the topic of purgatory, which some believe to be a place where souls go to be cleansed of their sins before they can enter Heaven.
Overall, 54 percent of U.S. Christians rejected the existence of such a place, while 33 percent said that they believed in it. White evangelicals were most likely to say it is a false belief, with 72 percent rejecting it. Catholics found themselves at the opposite end of the scale, with 70 percent stating that purgatory is a real place. While a majority (65 percent) of Protestants overall said purgatory does not exist, black Protestants were split on the belief, with 47 percent saying it exists and 48 percent saying it doesn't.
Notably, a majority of U.S. adults were familiar with the Reformation as the time Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church and correctly named Martin Luther as the person who inspired it.
Protestants this year are commemorating the 500th anniversary of the Reformation when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of All Saints Church in Wittenberg, Germany on Oct. 31, 1517.
According to Ligonier Ministries, while the Reformation is largely described as a movement that revolved around sola fide and sola scriptura, "the 'protest' of Protestantism went far beyond the issue of justification by faith alone, challenging many dogmas that emerged in Rome, especially during the Middle Ages."
Pew noted, "[T]he issues at the heart of the Reformation were not merely doctrinal. Disputes also arose over religious practices, ecclesiastical structures, the sale of indulgences, the expensive construction of St. Peter's Basilica in Rome, and more. Political and other factors also played an important role."
The Reformation swept through Germany in the 16th century, spread throughout Europe and then to the new world.
But we can choose to accept or reject by our actions and faith.
How exactly can we do that? The Council of Orange stated in #3 that you can't say a prayer. #4 says your will is corrupt so you can't do any "good things". #7 says you can't make a "right" choice. So given that you can't say a prayer, do good things, or make a choice for Jesus, how exactly do you "choose" to accept?
Right there you contradicted the entire conclusion that you stated. As the Council of Orange stated, there isn't anything we are capable of to bring us to God. We cannot in a state of "weakness" make a "choice". It is ONLY God's grace.
These are choices and I can see why people can choose either.
This is semi-Pelagian doctrine. But there is a lot of that going around these days (and not just in the Catholic Church).
+1
If you want to start parsing this out, then just about everything was said to his twelve disciples/apostles.
Yes, Moses told the people to choose life in Deut 30. In Deut 31 God told Moses the people won't do it:
Deu 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers. Then this people will rise and whore after the foreign gods among them in the land that they are entering, and they will forsake me and break my covenant that I have made with them.
And God was right. That is our wicked and perverse nature.
Peter’s phrase, “an appeal to God for a clear conscience” tells me that God has given me a clear conscience, I have assurance that every one of my sins (past, present, and future) has already been forgiven (Eph 1:7), and I stand in a right relationship with God. For me, baptism is a symbol of what has already happened. That’s not what you believe.
Specifically, re. Acts 2:38 – Peter is obedient to Christ’s command in Matthew 28:19 and urges the people who repented and turned to the Lord for salvation to publicly and openly identify with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection through the baptismo (full immersion) – an act that put them in literal danger but the demonstration of their obedience to follow the imperitive demonstrated the power of God to many others and as a result, the Church grew.
Forgiveness precedes baptism (Acts 2:41). Sometimes faith alone is named as the one thing that is needed for salvation (Jn 3:16, Acts 16:31, Rom 10:9, Eph 2:8,9). Other times repentance alone is named (Lk 24:47, Acts 3:19, 5:31, 17:30, 2 Cor 7:10). Repentance includes a mind change that trusts God (i.e. faith).
Finally, you will not change my position on this. Your view is in error and not supported by a complete view of the subject. You hang on a few verses but the totality of scripture supports my position so you will not change my position on this.
I’m done. Good-bye.
“...I have assurance that every one of my sins (past, present, and future) has already been forgiven (Eph 1:7), and I stand in a right relationship with God.”
Yes and Amen!
To whom are we "showing" our faith by our works? Doesn't God see our hearts and know whether our faith is genuine or faked? Nobody deserves salvation - that's why it is by grace that we are saved THROUGH FAITH and not of ourselves.
So you believe that man has no free will? That one has no ability to choose good or evil? So you believe that man cannot either accept God or reject Him? Please explain?
One can either accept the grace of God or not accept that same grace.
Yes, we need the graces that come to us from God in the Sacraments in order to do God’s will. God’s graces are a gift to us that leads to salvation, yet God does not force us to accept them.
Selected Heresies:
Pelagianism (5th Century)
Pelagius denied that we inherit original sin from Adam’s sin in the Garden and claimed that we become sinful only through the bad example of the sinful community into which we are born. Conversely, he denied that we inherit righteousness as a result of Christ’s death on the cross and said that we become personally righteous by instruction and imitation in the Christian community, following the example of Christ. Pelagius stated that man is born morally neutral and can achieve heaven under his own powers. According to him, God’s grace is not truly necessary, but merely makes easier an otherwise difficult task.
Semi-Pelagianism (5th Century)
After Augustine refuted the teachings of Pelagius, some tried a modified version of his system. This, too, ended in heresy by claiming that humans can reach out to God under their own power, without God’s grace; that once a person has entered a state of grace, one can retain it through one’s efforts, without further grace from God; and that natural human effort alone can give one some claim to receiving grace, though not strictly merit it.
Protestantism (16th Century)
Protestant groups display a wide variety of different doctrines. However, virtually all claim to believe in the teachings of sola scriptura (”by Scripture alone”—the idea that we must use only the Bible when forming our theology) and sola fide (”by faith alone”— the idea that we are justified by faith only).
The great diversity of Protestant doctrines stems from the doctrine of private judgment, which denies the infallible authority of the Church and claims that each individual is to interpret Scripture for himself. This idea is rejected in 2 Peter 1:20, where we are told the first rule of Bible interpretation: “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.” A significant feature of this heresy is the attempt to pit the Church “against” the Bible, denying that the magisterium has any infallible authority to teach and interpret Scripture.
The doctrine of private judgment has resulted in an enormous number of different denominations. According to The Christian Sourcebook, there are approximately 20-30,000 denominations, with 270 new ones being formed each year. Virtually all of these are Protestant.
Thus man owes to God all things, and while he is guilty and rightly damned for resisting God contrary to the level of grace given him, (Prov. 1:20-31; Lk. 10:13; 12:48; Rv. 20:11-15) man can not claim he actually deserves anything, and God does not owe him anything but damnation, except that under grace — which denotes unmerited favor — God has chosen to reward faith, (Heb. 10:35) in recognition of its effects.
Which means that God justifies man without the merit of any works, which is what Romans 4:1-7ff teaches, with “works of the law” including all systems of justification by merit of works, “for, if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.” (Galatians 3:21)
Thus the penitent publican and the contrite criminal, both of whom abased themselves as damned and destitute sinner and cast all their faith upon the mercy of God (which ultimately is Christ), were justified, and as such could go directly to be with the Lord at death, even before they did any manifest works of faith. But works justify one as being a believer, and fit to be rewarded under grace for such, (Mt. 25:30-40; Rv. 3:4) though only because God has decided to reward man for what God Himself is actually to be credited for.
And unlike most typical Catholics*, historical evangelical faith means that it is the faith to save them (on His account - His sinless shed blood - as damned and morally destitute sinners) which effects works that purifies the heart in the washing of regeneration, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9; Titus 3:5) that having such living justifying faith means obedience to the Object of said faith, the risen Lord Jesus.
Since faith is what purifies the heart, Scripture promises that,
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)
And thus the warnings to believers against unbelief, in departing from the living God. (Heb. 3:12; 10:38,39; cf. Gal. 5:1-5) But since to believe is to obey then Scripture promises,
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Hebrews 5:9)
Likewise since to be forgiven was to be healed in Mk. 2:1-12, then the Lord could rhetorically ask,
Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? (Mark 2:9)
But as it was forgiveness that resulted in healing, so it is faith which results in works. The former justifies one before God as Abraham was in Gn. 15:6, while the latter justifies one as being a believer, as Abraham was in Gn. 22. Thus both are necessary, as justifying faith effects obedience to the Lord who justifies the ungodly by such faith which is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5)
In his Introduction to Romans, Luther stated that saving faith is,
a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! [http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt]
This is what I have often said, if faith be true, it will break forth and bear fruit. If the tree is green and good, it will not cease to blossom forth in leaves and fruit. It does this by nature. I need not first command it and say: Look here, tree, bear apples. For if the tree is there and is good, the fruit will follow unbidden. If faith is present works must follow.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:340-341]
“We must therefore most certainly maintain that where there is no faith there also can be no good works; and conversely, that there is no faith where there are no good works. Therefore faith and good works should be so closely joined together that the essence of the entire Christian life consists in both.” [Martin Luther, as cited by Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1963], 246, footnote 99]
All believers are like poor Lazarus; and every believer is a true Lazarus, for he is of the same faith, mind and will, as Lazarus. And whoever will not be a Lazarus, will surely have his portion with the rich glutton in the flames of hell. For we all must like Lazarus trust in God, surrender ourselves to him to work in us according to his own good pleasure, and be ready to serve all men.. And although we all do not suffer from such sores and poverty, yet the same mind and will must be in us, that were in Lazarus, cheerfully to bear such things, wherever God wills it.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:25]
“This is why St. Luke and St. James have so much to say about works, so that one says: Yes, I will now believe, and then he goes and fabricates for himself a fictitious delusion, which hovers only on the lips as the foam on the water. No, no; faith is a living and an essential thing, which makes a new creature of man, changes his spirit and wholly and completely converts him. It goes to the foundation and there accomplishes a renewal of the entire man; so, if I have previously seen a sinner, I now see in his changed conduct, manner and life, that he believes. So high and great a thing is faith.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341]
“For it is impossible for him who believes in Christ, as a just Savior, not to love and to do good. If, however, he does not do good nor love, it is sure that faith is not present. Therefore man knows by the fruits what kind of a tree it is, and it is proved by love and deed whether Christ is in him and he believes in Christ...” [Sermons of Martin Luther 1:40]
“For if your heart is in the state of faith that you know your God has revealed himself to you to be so good and merciful, without thy merit, and purely gratuitously, while you were still his enemy and a child of eternal wrath; if you believe this, you cannot refrain from showing yourself so to your neighbor; and do all out of love to God and for the welfare of your neighbor. Therefore, see to it that you make no distinction between friend and foe, the worthy and the unworthy; for you see that all who were here mentioned, have merited from us something different than that we should love and do them good. And the Lord also teaches this, when in Luke 6:35 he says: "But love your enemies, and do good unto them, and lend, never despairing; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be sons of the Most High: for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil." [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:101]
...if obedience and God’s commandments do not dominate you, then the work is not right, but damnable, surely the devil’s own doings, although it were even so great a work as to raise the dead......Peter says the grace and gifts of God are not one but manifold, and each is to tend to his own, develop the same and through them be of service to others.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 1:244]
In addition, upon hearing that he was being charged with rejection of the Old Testament moral law, Luther responded,
And truly, I wonder exceedingly, how it came to be imputed to me, that I should reject the Law or ten Commandments, there being extant so many of my own expositions (and those of several sorts) upon the Commandments, which also are daily expounded, and used in our Churches, to say nothing of the Confession and Apology, and other books of ours. Martin Luther, ["A Treatise against Antinomians, written in an Epistolary way", http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_against_the_antinomians.html]
The classic Methodist commentator Adam Clarke held,
The Gospel proclaims liberty from the ceremonial law: but binds you still faster under the moral law. To be freed from the ceremonial law is the Gospel liberty; to pretend freedom from the moral law is Antinomianism.[Adam Clarke Commentary, Gal. 5:13]
Likewise on on Titus 1:16 ("They profess that they know God; but in works they deny, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." KJV):
Full of a pretended faith, while utterly destitute of those works by which a genuine faith is accredited and proved. [Adam Clarke Commentary, Titus 1]
To which the Presbyterian commentator Mathew Henry concurs: "There are many who in word and tongue profess to know God, and yet in their lives and conversations deny and reject him; their practice is a contradiction to their profession." [Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible, Titus 1]
Contemporary evangelical theologian R. C. Sproul writes,
The relationship of faith and good works is one that may be distinguished but never separated...if good works do not follow from our profession of faith, it is a clear indication that we do not possess justifying faith. The Reformed formula is, “We are justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone.”[[“Essential Truths of the Christian Faith,” Google books]
Also, rather than the easy believism Rome associates with sola fide, in Puritan Protestantism there was often a tendency to make the way to the cross too narrow, perhaps in reaction against the Antinomian controversy as described in an account (http://www.the-highway.com/Early_American_Bauckham.html) of Puritans during the early American period that notes,
“They had, like most preachers of the Gospel, a certain difficulty in determining what we might call the ‘conversion level’, the level of difficulty above which the preacher may be said to be erecting barriers to the Gospel and below which he may be said to be encouraging men to enter too easily into a mere delusion of salvation. Contemporary critics, however, agree that the New England pastors set the level high. Nathaniel Ward, who was step-son to Richard Rogers and a distinguished Puritan preacher himself, is recorded as responding to Thomas Hooker’s sermons on preparation for receiving Christ in conversion with, ‘Mr. Hooker, you make as good Christians before men are in Christ as ever they are after’, and wishing, ‘Would I were but as good a Christian now as you make men while they are preparing for Christ.’”
*
About 56 percent of Evangelicals currently say they're strongly affiliated with their religion, while only 35 percent of Catholics say the same, and 4% lower than mainline Protestants (devoutness of Mainline Protestants [distinct from evangelicals] fell to roughly 30 percent in the late 1970s to late 1980s before gradually climbing to 39 percent in 2010) https://www.barna.com/research/protestants-catholics-and-mormons-reflect-diverse-levels-of-religious-activity
Bible Reading: the highest was 75%, by those going to a Pentecostal/Foursquare church who reported they had read the Bible during the past week (besides at church), while the lowest was among Catholics at 23% ^
Volunteer church work (during past 7 days): Assemblies of God were highest at 30%, with the lowest going to Catholics at 12%. ^
Donating Money (during the last month): Church of Christ churches were the highest at 29%, with Catholics being the lowest at 12% ^
American evangelicals gave four times as much money, per person, to churches as did all other church donors in 2001. 88 percent of evangelicals and 73 percent of all Protestants donated to churches. John Ronsvalle and Sylvia Ronsvalle, The State of Church Giving through 2004: Will We Will? 16th ed. (Champaign, Ill.: Empty Tomb, 2006),12. http://www.generousgiving.org/stats#
Data from a variety of researchers indicates that Catholics give one-third to one-half the portion of income that Protestants give. http://www.emptytomb.org/cathgiv.html
A Catholic survey reports that 4 percent of US Catholics described themselves as “very” involved in parish or religious activities other than attending Mass, and 11% as “somewhat involved, and 64% as “not involved at all.” Among weekly (or more) attendees (approx 22% of adult Catholics), 13% were very” involved, 29% “somewhat involved and 25% not involved at all.” http://cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/FRStats/devotionpractice.pdf
68% of Evangelical Christians attend a regular Bible Study or participate in some other small-group activity. 47% of other Protestants take part in small groups related to their faith, along with 24% of Catholics. ^
Church attendance [2001]: 69% of those associated with Assembly of God churches, and 66% of other Pentecostal churches and 61% of those in non-denominational Protestant churches were the most likely to have attended in the past week (which does to mean they always do) .
Catholics [2012] report the lowest proportion of strongly affiliated followers among major American religious traditions, with a considerable divergence between evangelical Protestants on the one hand and Catholics and mainline Protestants on the other. There was an abrupt decline in strength of affiliation among Catholics starting in 1984 and ending in 1989. Thus may be due to the growing number of Latino Catholics responding to the survey. Previous research has shown Latino Catholics were less likely to report a strong religious affiliation compared with other Catholics. Also, the percentage of Americans who say they adhere to no religion climbed from about 6 percent in the 1970s and 1980s to 16 percent in 2010. http://www.science20.com/news_articles/religion_america_evangelicals_surge_catholics_wane-97244
The typical Catholic person was 38% less likely than the average American to read the Bible; 67% less likely to attend a Sunday school class; 20% less likely to share their faith in Christ with someone who had different beliefs, donated about 17% less money to churches, and were 36% less likely to have an "active faith," defined as reading the Bible, praying and attending a church service during the prior week. Catholics were also significantly less likely to believe that the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches. 44% of Catholics claimed to be "absolutely committed" to their faith, compared to 54% of the entire adult population. However, Catholics were 16% more likely to attend a church service and 8% more likely to have prayed to God during the prior week than the average American. Barna Reaearch, 2007, “Catholics Have Become Mainstream America” http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/12-faithspirituality/100
Comparing Catholics and other Americans, 44% of Catholics claimed to be "absolutely committed" to their faith versus 54% of the entire adult population, and donated about 17% less money to churches; was 38% less likely than the average American to read the Bible; 67% less likely to attend a Sunday school class; 20% less likely to share their faith in Christ with someone who had different beliefs; 24% less likely to say their religious faith has greatly transformed their life; and were 36% less likely to have an "active faith," (defined as reading the Bible, praying and attending a church service during the prior week.) Yet Catholics were 16% more likely than the norm to attend a church service and 8% more likely to have prayed to God during the prior week. Catholics Have Become Mainstream America, Barna research, July 9, 2007 https://www.barna.org/barna-update/faith-spirituality/100-catholics-have-become-mainstream-america#.VDZOGDRxnGg
More by God's grace.
What's the difference between the two?
You honestly do not know?
And as Pew and many other like agencies also has much reported , Evangelicals stood out as the strongest believers in faith resulting in works.
See what Luther actually taught in post 110 , then tell me why I should heed what some parroting propagandist says about Luther, whose polemical hyperbole is often taken out of context by such, when they are not passing on fabrications?
Jesus was stating the eternal seriousness of sin. Better to take strong action rather than having “body and soul cast into Hell.” Makes sense, but Oops! We just skewered the cherished dogma of the sola fida adherents, namely inviolable eternal security...
Sure, been there. Pretty much sure that this mega-church preacher’s over the top lavish mansion (who shall remain nameless as I am addressing the principle of moderation regarding earthly matters) exceeded by square footage the entire apartments of the Cardinals at the Vatican. And yes, I have spent a good deal of time visiting Jesuit residences, and can testify that these communal residences are very modest on a level with a college dorm.
Your comment: “Finally, you will not change my position on this. Your view is in error and not supported by a complete view of the subject. You hang on a few verses but the totality of scripture supports my position so you will not change my position on this.”
I hope that you are properly baptized.
Mark 18
The Commissioning of the Eleven. 14h [But] later, as the eleven were at table, he appeared to them and rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart because they had not believed those who saw him after he had been raised. 15i He said to them, “Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Christ’s message to His Apostles before His Ascension into Heaven were to go preach and baptize all nations. So is your heart hardened? Why do you not believe that Baptism is not necessary for your salvation?
The words of Jesus: “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.”
I don’t believe that Ephesians 1:7 says that all future sins are forgiven. “In him we have redemption by his blood, the forgiveness of transgressions, in accord with the riches of his graceg 8”
Out of curiosity what was your PhD thesis/dissertation about?
Is this why Catholics believe one can lose their salvation? This is talking to the Corinthians who, although they claimed to be Christians, actually thought it was swell for their parishioners to be sleeping with their mother. Paul tells them in quite a few places to examine themselves to see if they're in the faith.
2Co 13:5-6 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test.
Do you believe that YOU have the ability to choose between good or evil? I only state this as a rhetorical question because the ONLY correct response is no. The term "free will" never appears in scripture (except to say a "free will offering"). There is God's will and there is man's will. We are either slaves to sin or slave to God. We don't pick and choose.
So you believe that man cannot either accept God or reject Him? Please explain?
Did Paul picked to be an apostle? Samuel? Samson? Moses? David? etc. The list goes on. Did Israel choose to become God's nation? Did any other?
There are the elected of God chosen before the foundations of the world and then there are all the others. The scriptures are very clear on this. Don't ask me why this is, it simply is.
Protestant groups display a wide variety of different doctrines.
So does Catholic doctrine. Compare the Council of Trent version of "free will" to the Council of Orange and you'll see a complete change. Look up "atonement" on New Advent and you'll see that they unabashedly have changed the doctrine of atonement from what the early fathers held. All things become distorted. That is why God gave us the scriptures to ensure that we have a measuring stick for correct doctrine.
ONLY half?
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