Posted on 08/02/2017 2:07:44 PM PDT by detective
The Venezuelan Episcopal Conference (CEV) has publicly invoked the intercession of the Virgin Mary to free the nation “from the claws of communism,” in a clear reference to the regime of President Nicolás Maduro.
“Blessed Virgin, Mother of Coromoto, heavenly Patron of Venezuela, free our country from the claws of communism and socialism,” the CEV posted on Twitter this Sunday, complete with an image of Santa Maria and a Venezuelan flag.
(Excerpt) Read more at breitbart.com ...
You pray to the Unknown Solider?
How can a sinful human being be holy to you?
.
Leviticus 26:2 (reverence for a place)
Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.2 Samuel 9:6 (reverence for the anointed king)
Now when Mephibosheth, the son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, was come unto David, he fell on his face, and did reverence.1 Kings 1:31 (reverence for the king)
Then Bath-sheba bowed with her face to the earth, and did reverence to the king, and said, Let my lord king David live for ever.Luke 20:13 (reverence for a landowner's son)
Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.Ephesians 5:33 (reverence for one's husband)
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she shows reverence toward her husband.Hebrews 12:9 (reverence toward earthly fathers, and more to the Heavenly Father)
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Here’s where the confusion comes in. What’s forbidden is bowing in adoration; not bowing as a sign of honor or respect.
Can I show that Biblically? Sure. It permeates Old Testament culture.
Genesis 23:7 Then Abraham rose and bowed down before the people of that land Genesis 33:3-7 Jacob bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother Esau
maidservants and their children bow down to Esau
Leah and her children, Joseph and Rachel bow. Etc. etc!
Genesis 37 Joseph’s dreams: his brothers’ sheaves of corn -— and then the sun and moon and eleven stars —— bow down to him. Later his brothers actually do bow down to him with their faces to the ground
Genesis 48:11 Joseph bows to Jacob “with his face to the earth.”
1 Kings 1:15 Bathsheba bows low (face to the ground) and kneels before the aged king David
2 Kings 1:13 the captain kneels before the prophet Elijah, and “prays” —begs-— him to spare his life and the life of his 50 men
Moses bows down to father-in-law; Ruth bows down to Boaz; David prostrates before Jonathan; David prostrates to Saul; Abigail prostrates to David; Saul prostrates to Samuel; Nathan prostrates to David;
Obadiah bows to the ground before Elijah; the prophets in Jericho bow before Elisha;
the “whole assembly” bows low and prostrates before David; David bows to the Temple; David prostrates to Jerusalem;
God causes the king’s adversaries to bow prostrate on the ground and “lick the dust at his feet”;
the sons of the oppressors will bow to Zion.
OK, pretty obviously the patriarchs, prophets, and kings knew about the commandment not to bow down and worship anything or anybody but God. But here they are bowing, kneeling, and prostrating, and God is not offended. Why?
Because the commandment clearly forbids bowing and worshiping a creature as the Creator; it does not forbid kneeling or bowing (to king, prophet, father, husband or brother) as a form of honor or veneration.
The commandment does not prohibit kneeling or bowing to give honor. It prohibits adoration toward anyone but Almighty God.
Now here’s an interesting episode:
1 Kings 2:19
When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand.
Here’s the King bowing to his mother. Does that mean she’s equal to God? No. It doesn’t even mean she’s equal to the King. It means he’s pleased to honor her because of her royal dignity, her relationship as Queen Mother.
As our mindset gets further and further from traditional custom and culture, it gets harder and harder to grasp what was once the universal language of physical gesture (he salute, the tip of the hat, the bow, the genuflection, the handclasp, the curtsy, the kiss) and put each expression in its proper perspective.
It’s something to ponder and appreciate. As I live, I appreciate it more and more.
Will non-Catholics ever understand that what Catholics are doing when they knell before Mary and pray to her is NOT worship, but rather a subordinate form of due respect shown to a holy person, whose honor is automatically referred to God?
Of course. Most non-Catholics DO understand that. In fact, I've never run into any non-Catholics who *refused* to understand it, except at Free Republic.
Heaven knows how many mistranslations are in this list. I only checked one item. What is cited as:
Luke 20:13 (reverence for a landowner’s son)
Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
Is more accurately and literally translated as:
Luke 20:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
13 The owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my beloved son; perhaps they will respect him.’
The difference between ‘reverence,’ and ‘respect,’ is vast.
Reverence is a form of respect.
The “vast” difference is between the honor given to saints and angels, and the adoration given to God.
However I do encourage you -— all of us -— to keep thinking about the distinctions and gradations between these various forms of respect. The lack of distinction and gradation is what causes people to conflate veneration with idolatry.
I really think part of the problem here is that we live in a society almost totally lacking in an “honor tradition” -— except, as I noted, in the military.
If you will look up Luke 20:13 at BibleHub.com, and check out the many translations, you will note that “reverence” is the word used in the KJV.
Ah, according to Paul the ‘saints’ (chosen) were elected ‘before the foundation’ of this flesh age... God does NOT need flesh man to do what He already did. Mary was one of the ‘elect’ set aside ‘before the foundation’ of this flesh age.
Christ said ‘call NO man father... Mary would say do what He commands... carry on with the mystical traditions of man made theology... Not only do catholics call their man in Rome ‘father’ but they tag on ‘holy’ father when there is absolutely nothing holy about this turkey.
The words, ‘reverence,’ and, ‘respect,’ are far from synonymous. Respect is a much broader term, free from specific religious connotations. For example, there was a non-Christian professor of probability at MIT a few years ago. I sat in on his lectures. I has profound respect for him on a purely mathematics level—but zero reverence. Zero.
As to the King James Bible. That is a real can of worms. I took two years of Greek with one of the most gifted Greek professors to draw breath. He illustrated to us that the KJB was excellent for its time, but that older and more accurate Greek mss have since been discovered. Plus, words do change in meaning over time. That’s simply a fact of linguistics.
The New American Standard Bible is translated from the oldest and best mss available. Its unique claim to fame is that it strives to be the most literal translation of the original languages. Here is part of the blurb from BibleGateway:
[New American Standard Bible]
More accurate than ever:
Recent research on the oldest and best Greek manuscripts of the New Testament has been reviewed, and some passages have been updated for even greater fidelity to the original manuscripts.
Parallel passages have been compared and reviewed.
Verbs that have a wide range of meaning have been retranslated in some passages to better account for their use in the context.
And still the NASB:
The NASB update is not a change-for-the-sake-of-change translation. The original NASB stands the test of time, and change has been kept to a minimum in recognition of the standard that has been set by the New American Standard Bible.
The NASB update continues the NASB’s tradition of literal translation of the original Greek and Hebrew without compromise. Changes in the text have been kept within the strict parameters set forth by the Lockman Foundation’s Fourfold Aim.
The translators and consultants who have contributed to the NASB update are conservative Bible scholars who have doctorates in Biblical languages, theology, or other advanced degrees. They represent a variety of denominational backgrounds.
https://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/
I has profound = I had profound
Oh well.
You do realize we’re in the NT??
NASB +1
Your point about the distinctions between these words, is very interesting.
*Respect* is, I would agree, a broader term than *reverence*. But here’s an interesting thing: Biblical people often expressed what’s termed (in more modern translations) “respect,” with a full-body prostration. Hmm!
As well, the significance of gesture varies with the centuries and the cultures.
It’s strange to us, perhaps, to read that when Sir Thomas More was Chancellor of England, he used to begin his working days in London by going down to the lower courts where his father was some sort of minor magistrate, kneeling before him and asking his blessing. His natural piety toward his father was at least as great, if not greater, than his “state” piety toward the king!
The correct parsing of symbolic gestures has always been a challenge to Christian missionaries when encountering different cultures. Did the 17th century Chinese worship their ancestors (religious piety) or rather, show respect to their memory and their family (filial piety)? Did their use of incense indicate adoration? Matteo Ricci didn’t think so. But in any case he thought he could shape the ambiguity, so as to highlight the family reverence and direct their hopes toward Christ and Heaven.
When subsequent missionaries abolished these ancestor ceremonials altogether, the result was swift and terrible: the Mandarin court banned these insulting missionaries and expelled them from China. Which was then closed to mission efforts for the next, I don’t know, maybe 250 years!
Better cultural competence is, without a doubt, worth the expense in time and effort.
God can make the sinner holy.. The author of the Letter to the Hebrews calls Christians “holy brothers, sharing in a heavenly calling” (Hebrews 3:1) Paul calls us “priestly people, holy people, God’s chosen people.”
And not only Christians, I think. In the “Honor Roll” of Biblical heroes recorded in Hebrews, there are other examples. For instance (Hebrews 11:7)it says that the obedient and faithful Noah “inherited the righteousness that comes through faith.”
Hmmm. Yes.
Hmmm. Yes.
And...?
The temptation certainly exists for missionaries to allow locals to combine time honored pagan practices with the Gospel. That is the path of least resistance. Unfortunately, before you know it you have swaths of Mexican supposed Christians venerating Santa Meurte.
Pre-communist Chinese respected their elders and outright worshipped their ancestors. Telling them they could have both ancestor worship and Christianity was doing them no favors.
Christianity requires a break from paganism. Is this always an easy and popular message? Certainly not. But there is no Biblical text that okays the co-mingling of paganism with the Gospel. It’s one of the things we’re not allowed to do. .
But we all are sinners, even Mary, just like God says in Scripture, right?
God our Savior’s name/title for His saved handmaid Mary is “Kecharitomene.”
Personally, I think this shows us so much... about the Lord!
As always, when God reveals a new name or title for someone, it has a wonderful significance. Biblically, it signifies the great things God has done for that person.
This much is certain: this one exceptional woman, the inheritor of the promises of Genesis 3:15, the primordial enemy of the Serpent, is not called “full of sin,” but “full of grace.”
Of course, this is not her doing, but the favor of “God my Savior”, in view of her exceptional role as Mother of the Savior, the very Savior whom she conceived in her womb, and whom she adored. What great things He has done for her!
God says that everyone has sinned and since it is impossible for God to lie, we know for certain that Mary sinned, just as we all have.
If your church is teaching blasphemy against the Word of God himself, why would you endorse that?
Below is a comparison of the titles assigned to Mary by the SVC in Lumen gentium #61-62 as compared to what is found in the New Testament.
I will note up front that NO WHERE in the NT is Mary ever referred to as any of these titles.
These, like so much of Rome's false teachings on Mary, began to appear in the 4th century.
This again repudiates the Roman Catholic claim of "Sacred Tradition" being handed down from the Apostles.
In this comparison we will see that Roman Catholicsm has elevated Mary to positions equal to that of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
This is sheer blasphemy to do so as this means that for Mary to be able to accomplish any of these she has to be divine.
Not one NT writer ever ascribed any such condition to her.
| Second Vatican Council (Lumen gentium ## 61-62) For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of: | New Testament |
| Advocate | My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2 NASB |
| Auxiliatrix [Latin for helper, aide] | "But the Helper [paraklétos, GR, (a) an advocate, intercessor, (b) a consoler, comforter, helper, (c) Paraclete.], the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. John 14:26 NASB |
| Mediatrix [earliest reference is 4th century as applied to Mary] | 5For there is one God, and one mediator [mesités, GR, properly, an arbitrator ("mediator"), guaranteeing the performance of all the terms stipulated in a covenant (agreement). In the NT this is only applied to Christ] also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 NASB |
Bible quotes from NASB
RCC position on Mary from https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm
In August 1996, a Mariological Congress was held in Częstochowa, Poland, where a commission was established in response to a request of the Holy See. The congress sought the opinion of scholars present there regarding the possibility of proposing a fifth Marian dogma on Mary as Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate.
The commission unanimously declared that it was not opportune, voting 23-0 against the proposed dogma.[23][24] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-Redemptrix
Just give it a little more time and it will be thus completing the total apostasy of the Roman Catholic Church.
I call on all Roman Catholics to abandon their idolatry and blasphemous practices regarding Mary and follow Christ and Christ only.
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