Posted on 07/31/2017 1:18:27 PM PDT by ealgeone
Really?
Luke 22:70
Then said they all, Are you then the Son of God? And he said to them, You say that I am.
The Holy Spirit, who inspired Scripture, states that Jesus was the exception. The Scriptures claim sinlessness for no one else.
2 Corinthians 5:21 God made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
New American Standard Bible.
She is the mother of the Son, however, and as I ponder the many mysteries of Jesus and the Holy Trinity, I wonder how her pregnancy and being so connected to Jesus transformed her.
I also wonder how different her heart must have been and in what ways for her to have been chosen to be the Mother of Jesus, the Son of God.
And I also wonder what she morphed into after the death of her earthly human body.
I'm fairly late in life taking a serious interest in such things, but I notice how the majority of Christianity reveres and venerates Mary and are not offended by her being referred to as the Mother of God.
It's the side of Christianity I grew up around that has the problem, and all of this spiritual entropy and chaos of belief are yet another bunch of mysteries to me.
However, Satan is reputed to be a liar, a divider and a creator of chaos. Fwiw, the many divisions within Christianity and the reasons for them look a lot like his stuff to me.
Not surprisingly, there are what appear to be parallel versions of this same game running concurrently in political and educational systems here and around the world, that are slowly but surely pulling the post-WWII world order apart, too.
Fatima's warnings coming to fruition? Sure looks that way.
‘I’m fairly late in life taking a serious interest in such things, but I notice how the majority of Christianity reveres and venerates Mary and are not offended by her being referred to as the Mother of God.’
This would only be significant if Christianity were a democracy in which the majority could vote to impose their will/beliefs on the minority. As long as Christianity is a divine revelation of God, He, not the majority, ordains truth.
Matthew 12:46-50
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Changed Relationships
46 While He was still speaking to the crowd, behold His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.
47 Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
48 But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?”
49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers!
50 For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”
I can think of some reason that might explain it, but I'd be guessing.
Why don't you ask a few Catholics and see what they say, you know, to get a general idea?
And don't forget the Orthodox. Aren't they of a similar mind and opinion as the Catholics are about all things Mary?
Oh, you mean like when Moses and Elijah appeared in person during the transfiguration?
Oh, for extra bonus points the Transfiguration, is the fourth decade of the Rosary on Thursdays (The Luminous Mysteries). You mull over each of the points in turn below during each successive "Hail Mary."
The Fourth Luminous Mystery
THE TRANSFIGURATION
1. Jesus took Peter, James and John up a high mountain to pray.
2. Jesus was transfigured before them.
3. "His face became as dazzling as the sun, his clothes as radiant as light."
4. This was to fortify their faith to withstand the coming tragedy of the Passion.
5. Jesus foresaw the 'scandal of the cross,' and prepared them for it by this manifestation of His glory.
6. Moses and Elias (representing the Law and the prophets of the Old Testament) were conversing with Jesus about His Passion.
7. "Do not think I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets... but to fulfill them."
8. From a cloud came a voice: "This is my beloved Son, listen to Him."
9. Jesus admonishes them not to tell the vision to anyone until the Son of Man rises from the dead.
10. We too will behold the transfigured Jesus on the Last Day.
The Catholic doctrine is that Mary was supernaturally protected from Original Sin, IIRC.
As far as I can make out, the Orthodox agree about the sinlessness of Mary, but have a different mechanism.
Here is another message directly from God, telling us in so many words not to get carried away with Jesus’ mother. Passages like this bring to mind Jesus’ frequent saying/admonition: “He who has ears, let him hear,’:
Luke 11:
27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.”
28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”
I don't know about any of that, but from a research standpoint, such a large body of anecdotal data regarding the supernatural is significant to me and to my understanding.
That the two groups of data don't agree is fascinating, but the family feud thing is disturbing and predictable.
I wonder if maybe it's better to be blind and be innocent?
By far the best is to be imitators of Christ, our true example. Search the NT, and observe how many times we’re admonished to imitate Jesus. For this reason, it really matters whether we see examples of Jesus venerating Mary or not. Since He is our example, if He venerates Mary, so should we. If He refrains, we should refrain. Otherwise the admonition to imitate Jesus is meaningless.
All this extends to Paul as well. Can you point to an example of Paul venerating Mary? If not, how can a person both imitate Paul and venerate Mary? It’s a contradiction.
1 Corinthians 11:1
Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.
Demons.
I remember learning that.
I remember learning the Catholic version in catechism class.
Oh, you mean like when Moses and Elijah appeared in person during the transfiguration?
This was not an apparition. This was clearly understood by those who saw it.
The same cannot be said of the apparitions Roman Catholics claim to be Mary.
The Catholic tradition uses the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine. (The Lutheran confessions also use this numbering, while some other confessions & traditions use slightly different numberings.)
A comparison of Exodus 20:3-17 using the NASB translation compared to the Catholic Ten Commandments from beginning Catholic.com is provided for a comparison. The Traditional Catechetical Formula follows essentially the same pattern as the Beginning Catholic.com website except as noted.
The major omission in the Catholic list is the injunction against idols. In light of the Roman Catholic position on Mary and the relics one can understand this.
I have no idea why the Roman Catholic Church would not simply use either Exodus 20:3-17 or Deuteronomy 5:7-21 to learn the 10 Commandments other than not to call into question their position on Mary and the relics.
| Exodus 20:3-17. | Beginning Catholic 10 Commandments |
| 3 You shall have no other gods before Me | I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve. NOTE: The Traditional Catechetical Formula reads as follows I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me . |
| 4“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5“You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,6but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. | |
| 7“You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain. | You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. |
| 8“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9“Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11“For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORDblessed the sabbath day and made it holy. | Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day. |
| 12“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you. | Honor your father and your mother. |
| 13“You shall not murder. | You shall not kill. |
| 14“You shall not commit adultery. | You shall not commit adultery. |
| 15“You shall not steal. | You shall not steal. |
| 16“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. | You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. |
| 17“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” | You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. |
| You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods. |
It might behoove you to do a little investigation, and read up on some other appearances of Mary.
Some of them have resulted in many conversions *to* Christianity.
It would probably be far more prudent to say of veneration of Mary (think of sainthood as the Hall of Fame or the All-Star break; only celebrating a life lived in service to Christ rather than throwing a ball around a stadium) "not my cup of tea" rather than making your own ex cathedra pronouncements.
Read or example Romans 14 ..."it is before his own master that he stands or falls, for God is able to make him stand."
I've read the other accounts of apparitions claiming to be Mary. They follow a similar pattern. Their message when examined fully is counter to what is revealed in Scripture.
As a believer in Christ I recognize Mary as the mother of Christ. We count her blessed. She was in need of a Savior as the rest of us for all have sinned.
We do not bow down before her or pray to her though. We are not to have idols of her. That would be in contradiction of the Scriptures.
I've read the other accounts of apparitions claiming to be Mary. They follow a similar pattern. Their message when examined fully is counter to what is revealed in Scripture.
Our Lady of Guadeloupe being one notable exception.
I do note that both Sola Scriptura and controversy about Mary seem to be the biggies as far as sticking points between Catholics and dratted Protties. ;-D
That being said, Jesus *did* say that when the Holy Spirit comes, He would guide {believers] into all truth; I also note that Paul writes to TImothy to pay attention to (TImothy's) doctrine and teaching, for by so doing he will save both himself and his hearers; indicating that doctrine and teaching are important.
As a believer in Christ I recognize Mary as the mother of Christ. We count her blessed. She was in need of a Savior as the rest of us for all have sinned.
That's a sticky theological point, and probably over my head. She was not "innately sinless" by any intrinsic merit or worth of her own; she did not "slip through the cracks" as far as sin; but the Catholic holding is that she was retroactively imbued with Divine Grace so as to be preserved from Original Sin. This points to Christ and not to her: her Immaculate Conception was His doing -- but I might suggest that inquiring are debating about the mechanism might quite literally be none of our business, as though we'd presumed to ask President Trump's plan for defeating North Korea's nukes: we have no right to know, and it is presumptively arrogant to ask.
We do not bow down before her or pray to her though. We are not to have idols of her. That would be in contradiction of the Scriptures.
We don't pray to her, but we ask for her help and intercession: much as one would ask someone after the 11:00 AM church service to pray for you. Even death cannot quench the fellowship of believers. (And besides, they're already *up* in heaven: at least, for most of them, we *hope* so.)
For Mary, though, there might be two factors: the Catholics believe because of her being chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus, she has more than the ordinary amount of God's favor ("Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee!") and so God might give more consideration to her prayers. Also, Mary's suffering ("and thy own soul a sword shall pierce") gives her additional compassion towards others, and perhaps a role as a channel, a vessel, to deliver God's Grace and Mercy to a fallen world. ("Jesus learned obedience through the things that He suffered") as well as having redemptive power on their own: cf. St. Paul's statement in Colossians "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church." Think of it as "God wants to toss us as many lifelines as possible; for those who can't start by trusting in Jesus, talking to his Mom is like Grace with training wheels.
She is Jesus's mother as well: look at the old Testament, when one of Solomon's brothers prompts Bathsheba to ask King Solomon, to give him Abishag as his wife (she was the virgin who helped keep King David warm in his old age). Solomon sees his Mother and says, "What is it you have come to ask of me mother? You know I will not refuse you." So Jewish mothers tend to have influence over their son, right? Going all the way back to the wedding at Cana "What do I have to do with you, woman, my time is not yet come." And her response to the waiters, which is echoed in many Catholic teachings: "Do whatever He tells you." Hardly seeking her own glory, nor an idol.
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