Posted on 07/26/2017 10:35:48 AM PDT by ebb tide
Sources inside the Vatican suggest that Pope Francis aims to end Pope Benedict XVI’s universal permission for priests to say the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM), also known as the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. While the course of action would be in tune with Pope Francis’ repeatedly expressed disdain for the TLM especially among young people, there has been no open discussion of it to date.
Sources in Rome told LifeSite last week that liberal prelates inside the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith were overheard discussing a plan ascribed to the Pope to do away with Pope Benedict’s famous document that gave priests freedom to offer the ancient rite of the Mass.
Catholic traditionalists have just celebrated the tenth anniversary of the document, Summorum Pontificum. Pope Benedict XVI issued it in 2007, giving all Latin Rite priests permission to offer the TLM without seeking permission of their bishops, undoing a restriction placed on priests after the Second Vatican Council.
The motu proprio outraged liberal bishops as it stripped them of the power to forbid the TLM, as many did. Previously priests needed their bishop’s permission to offer the TLM.
Additionally, Summorum Pontificum stated that wherever a group of the faithful request the TLM, the parish priests should willingly agree to their request.
The overheard plans are nearly identical to comments from an important Italian liturgist in an interview published by France’s La Croix earlier this month. Andrea Grillo a lay professor at the Pontifical Athenaeum of St Anselmo in Rome, billed by La Croix as “close to the Pope,” is intimately familiar Summorum Pontificum. Grillo in fact published a book against Summorum Pontificum before the papal document was even released.
Grillo told La Croix that Francis is considering abolishing Summorum Pontificum. According to Grillo, once the Vatican erects the Society of Saint Pius X as a Personal Prelature, the Roman Rite will be preserved only within this structure. "But [Francis] will not do this as long as Benedict XVI is alive.”
The plan, as related to LifeSite, involved making an agreement with the Society of St. Pius X and, with that agreement in place, sequestering those Catholics wanting the TLM to the SSPX. For most, that would strip them of access to the TLM since there would not be nearly enough SSPX priests to service Catholics wanting the TLM worldwide.
Moreover, LifeSite’s source suggested that the plan may explain a May 20, 2017 letter by the recently ousted Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, Cardinal Gerhard Müller. Even though Cardinal Müller wanted the SSPX fully reconciled to help fight modernists in the Church, the May 20 letter seemed to scuttle an agreement between Pope Francis and the SSPX which would see them get a personal prelature. The letter includes provisions long known to be completely unacceptable to the SSPX, thus nullifying an understanding SSPX leader Bishop Bernard Fellay believed was imminent.
The LifeSite source suggested that the May 20 letter by Muller perhaps was written because he knows what Francis was up to and wanted to avoid the plan to bury Summorum Pontificum with Pope Benedict. “It’s directed not so much against Fellay but against the agreement,” said the source. “Pope Francis was very angry that document came out from Cardinal Muller and some say that’s why he made the decision to dismiss him.”
Whoops, meant that to be a private reply.
To the best of my understanding there are 22 rites of the Catholic Church, all of them considered valid and meeting of Sunday obligation (please correct me if I am wrong).
The New Order Mass always seemed a bit crass to me and removed the dignity of the Tridentine (TLM). However, its greatest problem was turning the altar around and having the priest face the congregation. Instead of leading people in worship, he now seems to demonstrate or act out the worship for the viewers in the congregation. Please note that previous comment is personal opinion, but highly influenced by Cardinal Sarah.
I also have a problem with the TLM, namely that it is in Latin. Always felt it should have been offered properly translated to the native language. The language barrier creates a separation that should not be there.
The TLM is a fairly old service (800 years or so - please correct me if wrong) and considered (by Catholics) to be without [significant] error during its time (~1200 until 1970). I can see no reason to bar its use as inappropriate. The Vatican does have a point though in wanting uniformity of service in Roman Catholic parishes. Perhaps it is time to create a Latin Rite Catholic Church (my apologies if it already exists), that uses the TLM instead of NO. Separate Rite not just separate service.
As mentioned earlier in the thread there are Byzantine Rite Catholics that use the Liturgy of St. John Chysostom and St. Basil the Great (originating from the 3rd and 4th century) and are usually translated into English (very respectfully). Perhaps it might be enlightening to see how Christians worshipped in the early centuries of the Church.
Maybe a different Rite for each service. Might be the real solution if the Vatican isn’t just looking to destroy the TLM and then the other Liturgies later.
They can’t separate the rite into two, because the Latin Rite is the Roman Rite as in Bishop of Rome=Pope.
If they tried they know it would touch off a huge schism.
The Pope is still in charge of all 22 existing rites. Not sure how this would be different. The major problem I see would be to which Rite the priests would belong. I do not know if a priest of one Rite can serve the Liturgy (mass) of another, but I suspect so or at worst an indulgence (hope this is the right use of that word in this sense) could be granted.
I didn't realize the extent to which a "latin mass catholic" would laugh at the Apostles and Scripture. My apologies.
Or, instead of arguing, anyone from any faith or denomination who has an interest can post and discuss on an open thread.
Since the 1570 Missal of Pius V was issued in the wake of the Council of Trent, the ancient rite has often been referred to as the Tridentine Mass. While there is nothing inherently wrong with this term, it can (and has) been used by some seeking to diminish the ancient rite by implying that it only dates back to 1570.
This, of course, is a myth.
Writing 50 years before the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965) and the promulgation of the new Mass of Paul VI (1970), Father Adrian Fortescue discussed the very antiquity of the Roman Rite in his classic, The Mass: A Study of the Roman Liturgy (1912):
“Essentially the Missal of St. Pius V is the Gregorian Sacramentary; that again is formed from the Gelasian book which depends on the Leonine collection. We find the prayers of our Canon in the treatise de Sacramentisand allusions to it in the IV century. So our Mass goes back, without essential change, to the age when it first developed out of the oldest liturgy of all. It is still redolent of that liturgy, of the days when Caesar ruled the world and thought he could stamp out the faith of Christ, when our fathers met together before dawn and sang a hymn to Christ as to a God. The final result of our enquiry is that, in spite of unsolved problems, in spite of later changes, there is not in Christendom another rite so venerable as ours.”
https://onepeterfive.com/busting-myth-tridentine-mass/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Onepeterfive+%28OnePeterFive%29
Latin used in Catholic churches has always reminded me of Sanskrit use in Hindu devotions. Sanskrit is not a living spoken language any more (although most languages in India are clearly derivations of it), but the sound of Sanskrit has a beauty and majesty and depth, that the same prayers or scriptural passages sometimes can miss when translated into various native tongues.
I personally like to memorize and recites verses in Sanskrit but of course know the English meaning, it is vital to know what one is saying or hearing. And knowing any Sanskrit or I presume Latin, is not essential in order to know God. But it can add something very beautiful. Also that aspect of believers throughout history and even currently recite and hear the same words. Very similar to the Catholic tradition of Latin usage. I fully support the use of Latin, needless to say (not that it matters as I am not Catholic, but I can relate).
Yes there is an answer....Caucus thread.
“I’m not a Catholic but I’d be very interested in attending a Latin mass.”
See if you can find an SSPX Mass.
“That said I can understand how some Catholics would not be interested in anything other than a Latin mass.”
The vast majority of us only get the opportunity to participate in the Tridentine very rarely.
I assumed TLM and Tridentine are the same. If not my apologies. I certainly did not mean to denigrate it. I’m not honestly sure how old TLM is. You state a general misconception of about 450 years, I thought 800. When did this form of the mass start being used? There are many Liturgies that date back to the first 4 centuries, I don’t believe this is one of them. I would be happy if you could further enlighten me.
I believe it was Fr. Groeschel, not sure, who said the enemy hates Latin
Did Jesus perform a ‘Latin’ mass?
Yes, they can offer the Mass in (for example) the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite and the Maronite Rite, (that's called being bi-ritual), provided certain conditions are met. They have to first receive permission from both bishops (the Roman bishop and the Maronite bishop), and be "granted faculties" by those bishops. They must also be familiar with the forms / formats of both versions of the Mass / Divine Liturgy, and for the Maronite Mass, it is my understanding that part of their liturgy involves the use of Aramaic (the language of our Lord), so they would have to be familiar with at least some Aramaic.
One priest who is bi-ritual in both of those rites is Fr. Mitch Pacwa from EWTN.
Here are two video clips, the first being part of the Daily Mass in the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, and the second being (I believe) part of a Daily Mass in the Maronite Rite.
| Part of Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite Daily Mass Part of Maronite Rite Daily Mass |
This would be a most retrograde step. Things just keep getting worse and worse.
This thread actually could have been a Catholic Caucus because it doesn’t appear to have mentioned any non-Catholics.
Take it up with ebb....he posted the article.
Not interested in “taking it up with ebb”. I was responding to your comment re: “Caucus”.
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Yes.
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