Posted on 04/29/2017 8:02:13 AM PDT by NYer
As we pray for the success of Pope Francis’ trip to Egypt this weekend, a perfect prayer to use is the oldest known Marian prayer, which in fact, traces back to the pope’s host country.
The oldest known Marian prayer is found on an ancient Egyptian papyrus dating from around the year 250. Today known in the Church as the Sub tuum praesidium, the prayer is believed to have been part of the Coptic Vespers liturgy during the Christmas season.
The original prayer was written in Greek and according to Roseanne Sullivan, “The prayer is addressed to Our Lady using the Greek word Θεοτόκος, which is an adjectival form of Θεοφόρος (Theotokos, or God-bearer) and is more properly translated as ‘she whose offspring is God.'” This helps to prove that the early Christians were already familiar with the word “Theotokos” well before the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus ratified its usage.
Below can be found the original Greek text from the papyrus, along with an English translation as listed on the New Liturgical Movement website:
| On the papyrus, we can read: .ΠΟ ΕΥCΠΑ ΚΑΤΑΦΕ ΘΕΟΤΟΚΕΤ ΙΚΕCΙΑCΜΗΠΑ ΕΙΔΗCΕΜΠΕΡΙCTAC AΛΛΕΚΚΙΝΔΥΝΟΥ …ΡΥCΑΙΗΜΑC MONH …HEΥΛΟΓ |
And an English translation could be: Under your mercy we take refuge, Mother of God! Our prayers, do not despise in necessities, but from the danger deliver us, only pure, only blessed. |
More commonly the prayer is translated:
Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Mother of God:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one.
Several centuries later a Latin prayer was developed and is more widely known in the Roman Catholic Church:
| Latin Text Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, Sancta Dei Genetrix. Nostras deprecationes ne despicias in necessitatibus nostris, sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper, Virgo gloriosa et benedicta |
English Text We fly to Thy protection, O Holy Mother of God; Do not despise our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O Glorious and Blessed Virgin. Amen. |
The prayer is currently part of the Byzantine, Roman and Ambrosian rites in the Catholic Church and is used specifically as a Marian antiphon after the conclusion of Compline outside of Lent (in the older form of the Roman breviary). It is also a common prayer that has stood the test of time and is a favorite of many Christians, and is the root of the popular devotional prayer, the Memorare.
You are correct MM. Someone else made me laugh, when he said there is no scripture prohibiting the angels from playing bingo in Heaven, but I doubt they are. 😂
A Dallas grad once said, and I agree, don't ever build theology, on what the Bible does NOT say. It tends to put one's immortal soul in severe amounts of danger of hell fire and brimstone.
Also, no matter how much people try to sugarcoat it, praying to the departed saints, is NECROMANCY, and I am not going to be a necromancer. 😀
I am non denominational.
I don’t recall hearing that.
But could be I just wasn’t paying attention.
In the course of my 40 years as a Christian, I have attended and worshiped at these churches that all taught the Bible and preached the gospel of salvation by faith in Christ. and all mostly agreed theologically on that:
(I’ll try to do it in just alphabetical order)
Assemblies of God
Baptist (different flavors)
Calvary Chapel
Christian and Missionary Alliance
Methodist
Pentecostal
Presbyterian
Various and assorted non-denominational
and all mostly agreed theologically at least on that
Salvation by faith in Christ.
There were a few slight differences, mostly in either worship style, or regarding manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
But could be I just wasn’t paying attention.
Well, it's awonder that I heard anything. All I wanted to do, was play hockey, and flirt with the girls in school. One of them, came with her husband, to visit me and my magandang asawa (wife) last year. She is also an ex Catholic. 😀
I know you are also a member!
Thanks be to God for His Indescribable Gift!
That is my church.
Glory to God through Jesus Christ!
And that's just for starters!
Amen! I don't know you yet, but we will have time yet on earth and all eternity to fellowship!
Question - WHY do you need to know this about a Freeper?
Response - I do not need to know this about anyone. This is the first time I ever asked the question on FR, and it was only to make a point to another FReeper.
Question - I mean, do you comprehend that non-Catholics CAN hold to the basic beliefs of Christianity yet choose to worship within different denominational groups?
Response - I am not comfortable with calling other Christians non-Catholic. It is a term my Methodist mother never liked, so in her honor I try to avoid using it. But yes, I do comprehend that other Christians can hold to the same basic beliefs as Catholics yet choose to worship within different denominational groups. I’ve seen it in my immediate family.
My sister is Methodist and my younger brother has been a member of several denominations, including Church of Christ, Presbyterian, Evangelical, and non-denominational.
One of my daughters searched extensively for a church where she felt comfortable before settling on a Christian Church near her home. We have had several conversations about our shared beliefs in Christ. As my wife says, “as long as she follows Jesus . . .”
Several other family members (cousins, nieces, and nephews) are Lutheran (LCMS), Methodist, and Baptist.
So for me it’s no big deal. What is a big deal is my kids who do not go to any church. They are always in my prayers.
May the Peace of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ be with you.
Rich
The reason you got the reaction you did was because other FRoman Catholics HAVE pestered others about their church identity. What was the point you were trying to make, if I may ask?
Also, WRT the term "non-Catholic Christians", I don't especially like it either but it is necessary sometimes on threads where a few deny non-Catholics can even be true Christians. I don't think you have that issue, and I appreciate that. Thank you.
Remember,
O most gracious Virgin Mary,
that never was it known
that anyone
who fled to your protection,
implored your help or
sought your intercession,
was left unaided.
Inspired with this confidence,
I fly to you,
O Virgin of virgins,
my Mother;
to you do I come,
before you I stand,
sinful and sorrowful.
O Mother of the Word Incarnate,
despise not my petitions,
but in your mercy
hear and answer me.
Amen.
I much prefer “God-bearer” and “Theotokos.”
While I would say that “apostolic tradition” and “[merely or simply] human tradition” do not exhaust the possibilities, I do get fretful at the excessive claims of my co-religionists. I think it's a fine prayer. It's clearly an old prayer. I don't need it to be from the Didache or earlier. And, just as you say, third century ain't apostolic.
My go-to brief Marian prayer is coming up on 200 years old. My favorite longer Marian prayer is not 1k years old. Though I'm grateful for the clarifications and titles of Ephesus and Chalcedon, I haven't based my decision about the intercession of the saints or which prayers I like on their age. I hope you are well.
The reason we use *non-Catholic* is because we are not identifying by denomination and the churches we attend are not traditional Protestant churches.
Most of those have fallen by the wayside and become very liberal and that is not who we are.
I prefer *mother of Jesus* because that’s how God, the Holy Spirit, chose to identify her.
If HE thought it was a better term, I don’t have any doubt He would have used it.
But He didn’t.
To find things WRONG with whatever bunch you are with and make YOU waste time trying to DEFEND those things; thus slithering away from whatever problems that ROME has created.
At least; when we PROTs disagree on certain things biblically; we ALWAYS seem to go back to the BIBLE for support of out viewpoint and NOT to some writings/teachings that our chosen religious organization has produced over the years.
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