The oldest known Marian prayer is from Egypt

Aletelia ^ | April 28, 2017 | Philip Kosloski

[NYer]

The "Sub tuum praesidium" was originally used in an ancient Coptic liturgy

As we pray for the success of Pope Francis’ trip to Egypt this weekend, a perfect prayer to use is the oldest known Marian prayer, which in fact, traces back to the pope’s host country.

The oldest known Marian prayer is found on an ancient Egyptian papyrus dating from around the year 250. Today known in the Church as the Sub tuum praesidium, the prayer is believed to have been part of the Coptic Vespers liturgy during the Christmas season.

Read more: Saint Mark: Father of Coptic Christianity

 

 

The original prayer was written in Greek and according to Roseanne Sullivan, “The prayer is addressed to Our Lady using the Greek word Θεοτόκος, which is an adjectival form of Θεοφόρος (Theotokos, or God-bearer) and is more properly translated as ‘she whose offspring is God.'” This helps to prove that the early Christians were already familiar with the word “Theotokos” well before the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus ratified its usage.

Below can be found the original Greek text from the papyrus, along with an English translation as listed on the New Liturgical Movement website:

 

On the papyrus, we can read: .ΠΟ ΕΥCΠΑ ΚΑΤΑΦΕ ΘΕΟΤΟΚΕΤ ΙΚΕCΙΑCΜΗΠΑ ΕΙΔΗCΕΜΠΕΡΙCTAC AΛΛΕΚΚΙΝΔΥΝΟΥ …ΡΥCΑΙΗΜΑC MONH …HEΥΛΟΓ

And an English translation could be: Under your mercy we take refuge, Mother of God! Our prayers, do not despise in necessities, but from the danger deliver us, only pure, only blessed.

 

More commonly the prayer is translated:

Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Mother of God:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one.

Several centuries later a Latin prayer was developed and is more widely known in the Roman Catholic Church:

Latin Text  Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, Sancta Dei Genetrix. Nostras deprecationes ne despicias in necessitatibus nostris, sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper, Virgo gloriosa et benedicta

English Text We fly to Thy protection, O Holy Mother of God; Do not despise our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O Glorious and Blessed Virgin. Amen.

 

The prayer is currently part of the Byzantine, Roman and Ambrosian rites in the Catholic Church and is used specifically as a Marian antiphon after the conclusion of Compline outside of Lent (in the older form of the Roman breviary). It is also a common prayer that has stood the test of time and is a favorite of many Christians, and is the root of the popular devotional prayer, the Memorare.

 

[Elsie]

The analogy is valid because there is no Scriptural prohibition against asking for prayer requests from the deceased

Trying to use the 'prove a negative' ploy?

[Elsie]

...because Mary being deceased is with God, ...

another fantastic CLAIM with ZERO proof.

[Elsie]

By the way, I like Christian fantasy, too...

I think that is a REQUIREMENT to be Catholic; but; I could be wrong.

[Elsie]

Consecrating your heart to Mary is using her as a role model,

Just EXACTLY what kind of 'roles' do you find her playing in the bible?

[Elsie]

Judas was taught by Jesus and he failed.

Oh?

Looks like to me that he SUCCEEDED!

---

The NT suggests that Judas is apparently bound up with the fulfillment of God's purposes ...

 

John 13:18
“I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me.

 

 

 

John 17:12
While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

 

 

 

Matthew 26:23
Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him.

 

 

 

Matthew 27:9-66
Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”

 

 

 

Acts 1:16
and said, “Brothers and sisters, the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus.

 

 

 

 

[af_vet_1981]

Elisha saying "My father, my father when Elijah was being taken up to heaven is not a prayer at all, but an simply exclamation that asks nothing.

You left out the rest of what Elisha said. It is not simply an exclamation that asks nothing, for it is repeated later in the same book. It is a cry for help from the designated deliverer of Israel when it appears that deliverer will be taken from Israel. King Joash uses the same cry to the Prophet Elisha as Elisha used with the Prophet Elijah, and then Elisha provides deliverance through the spirit of Elijah (which you correctly stated was the Spirit of God), according to the faith of King Joash. Elisha chastised King Joash for not having more faith by which his prayer would have been answered with more deliverance from the adversaries of Israel.

Now Elisha was fallen sick of his sickness whereof he died. And Joash the king of Israel came down unto him, and wept over his face, and said, O my father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And Elisha said unto him, Take bow and arrows. And he took unto him bow and arrows. And he said to the king of Israel, Put thine hand upon the bow. And he put his hand upon it: and Elisha put his hands upon the king's hands. And he said, Open the window eastward. And he opened it. Then Elisha said, Shoot. And he shot. And he said, The arrow of the LORD's deliverance, and the arrow of deliverance from Syria: for thou shalt smite the Syrians in Aphek, till thou have consumed them. And he said, Take the arrows. And he took them. And he said unto the king of Israel, Smite upon the ground. And he smote thrice, and stayed. And the man of God was wroth with him, and said, Thou shouldest have smitten five or six times; then hadst thou smitten Syria till thou hadst consumed it: whereas now thou shalt smite Syria but thrice.

Second Kings, Catholic chapter thirteen, Protestant verses fourteen to nineteen,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[Elsie]

... I guess you think ...

Your guesser is broken and your ignoring of the PLAIN words of ECFs suggest a problem with what ROME now teaches.

[Elsie]

". . .have you not read what God said to you, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but the living." (Matthew 22:31-32)

Using this out of context tells me that you've been taught by ROME that every believer who has died is now in heaven.

The bible says you are wrong.

---

Psalm 13:3
Look on me and answer, Lord my God. Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death,

 

Psalm 90:5
Yet you sweep people away in the sleep of death— they are like the new grass of the morning:

 

Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
 
 
John 11:12-13
His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”
Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

 

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Listen, I tell you a mystery:

We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 

Ephesians 5:14
This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

 

1 Thessalonians 4:13
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
 

[Elsie]

There’s gonna be a LOT more at this rate!

[BlueDragon]

Yes, it was a real place.

It appears that you woefully misunderstood my intended meaning, which was --- is everyone present there LITERALLY leaning upon 'Abraham's bosum'

You just said it was a place. I had been speaking about it as it were a place (rather than a person). Jesus had obviously enough been speaking of Abraham's bosum, as it were a place using identifiable persons to describe the spiritual realities of the "place".

The only question now left here for myself regarding communications between the two of us, in my mind is; did you really misunderstand my intended meanings that badly, or are you just semi-faking it in order to make it look like you actually have something to say.

I was the one who had brought #633 to this thread, in the first place, I seem to recall. Perhaps it was some other ongoing thread, and I'm just mistaken.

If it is agreement you are looking for, whatever of that is available was already on the table prior to composition of your here reply, for I had placed the dish there by my own hand...

Dragging that back into discussion at this point, (with the few little extra added words you chose as intro) in my view, is rather pointless, and not entirely unlike one having refused to eat (when anyone was looking), then, after sneaking a few nibbles (when others are not looking) starts throwing the food around while posturing as if to be everyone not of their tribe's instructor, while they're at it.

Remind me to never invite you for sit-down dinner.

[Elsie]

There is an infinite distance between Marian veneration and worship of the Trinity and the Incarnate Word.

How does one measure the INFINITE?

How do YOU explain the posted quotes from highly placed Catholics that claim SALVATION is in the hands of MARY?

How can you possibly expect for a PROT to believe what ROME 'officially' says and what it's members 'un'-officially DO?

[Elsie]

When asked: yes

When talking about their religious affiliation in normal conversation, CATHOLIC comes up MUCH more often than CHRISTIAN.

[Elsie]

How many PROTs on FR preface their comments with...

Well; my METHODIST training taught me...

My BAPTIST schooling stresses that...

My PENTACOSTAL teachers say...

[Elsie]

HEY!

[Elsie]

Nope, your comments are the disruptive ones, not mine.

Of course...

[Elsie]

A king is asleep??

[Elsie]

956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."

Conjured up from thin air!!

[Elsie]

One would think; with all these 'saints' in heaven having GOD's ear; that Catholics would be in MUCH better shape on earth than the rest of us mere mortals.

Why do the insurance companies gouge RCC members when the data OBVIOUSLY shows that they do NOT get sick as much; stay in the hospital a LOT less time than others and their lifespans are greater as well.

---

If I were a Catholic I'd complain about this disparity!!

[boatbums]

as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."

Yeah, "the Treasury of Merit". What I remember about this is it's like a special savings account in heaven's bank and, since the Saints and Mary had more than enough good works to merit heaven for themselves, their excess is saved up in that special account. Then, when we pray to them or do things for those in Purgatory (like a Requiem Mass, indulgences, etc.), those extra merits get "credited" to their/our accounts and along with our own merits give them/us what we need to get out of Purgatory into heaven. See? Simple! Now, I'm sure the "official" version is worded a little differently so as not to sound as simple, but that's what I recall.

[metmom]

Nope, your comments are the disruptive ones, not mine.

IOW, *I'm right and you're wrong cause I said so.*

Case closed.

Yessirree, that settles it for sure for a fact.