The oldest known Marian prayer is from Egypt

Aletelia ^ | April 28, 2017 | Philip Kosloski

[NYer]

The "Sub tuum praesidium" was originally used in an ancient Coptic liturgy

As we pray for the success of Pope Francis’ trip to Egypt this weekend, a perfect prayer to use is the oldest known Marian prayer, which in fact, traces back to the pope’s host country.

The oldest known Marian prayer is found on an ancient Egyptian papyrus dating from around the year 250. Today known in the Church as the Sub tuum praesidium, the prayer is believed to have been part of the Coptic Vespers liturgy during the Christmas season.

Read more: Saint Mark: Father of Coptic Christianity

 

 

The original prayer was written in Greek and according to Roseanne Sullivan, “The prayer is addressed to Our Lady using the Greek word Θεοτόκος, which is an adjectival form of Θεοφόρος (Theotokos, or God-bearer) and is more properly translated as ‘she whose offspring is God.'” This helps to prove that the early Christians were already familiar with the word “Theotokos” well before the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus ratified its usage.

Below can be found the original Greek text from the papyrus, along with an English translation as listed on the New Liturgical Movement website:

 

On the papyrus, we can read: .ΠΟ ΕΥCΠΑ ΚΑΤΑΦΕ ΘΕΟΤΟΚΕΤ ΙΚΕCΙΑCΜΗΠΑ ΕΙΔΗCΕΜΠΕΡΙCTAC AΛΛΕΚΚΙΝΔΥΝΟΥ …ΡΥCΑΙΗΜΑC MONH …HEΥΛΟΓ

And an English translation could be: Under your mercy we take refuge, Mother of God! Our prayers, do not despise in necessities, but from the danger deliver us, only pure, only blessed.

 

More commonly the prayer is translated:

Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Mother of God:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one.

Several centuries later a Latin prayer was developed and is more widely known in the Roman Catholic Church:

Latin Text  Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, Sancta Dei Genetrix. Nostras deprecationes ne despicias in necessitatibus nostris, sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper, Virgo gloriosa et benedicta

English Text We fly to Thy protection, O Holy Mother of God; Do not despise our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O Glorious and Blessed Virgin. Amen.

 

The prayer is currently part of the Byzantine, Roman and Ambrosian rites in the Catholic Church and is used specifically as a Marian antiphon after the conclusion of Compline outside of Lent (in the older form of the Roman breviary). It is also a common prayer that has stood the test of time and is a favorite of many Christians, and is the root of the popular devotional prayer, the Memorare.

 

[BipolarBob]

Don’t forget Balaams donkey. Yes, God even uses asses for His purpose but they shouldn’t bray about it so loudly.

[Biggirl]

Nope, your comments are the disruptive ones, not mine.

Case closed.

[af_vet_1981]

Abraham's bosum. Should that be taken entirely literally?

Yes, it was a real place.

Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into Hell

632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was "raised from the dead" presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom":481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487

Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."488

IN BRIEF

636 By the expression "He descended into hell", the Apostles' Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil "who has the power of death" (Heb 2:14).

637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven's gates for the just who had gone before him.

[af_vet_1981]

Which is because Catholics insist that earthly communication or btwn those in the same realm is the same thing as praying to God in Heaven, ...

I think you made a mistake in this comment Daniel. Here are some relevant sections from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

2564 Christian prayer is a covenant relationship between God and man in Christ. It is the action of God and of man, springing forth from both the Holy Spirit and ourselves, wholly directed to the Father, in union with the human will of the Son of God made man.



956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."493

Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.494

I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.495

957 Communion with the saints. "It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself"496:

We worship Christ as God's Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord's disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!497



CHAPTER THREE
THE LIFE OF PRAYER


ARTICLE 1
EXPRESSIONS OF PRAYER

I. VOCAL PRAYER

2700 Through his Word, God speaks to man. By words, mental or vocal, our prayer takes flesh. Yet it is most important that the heart should be present to him to whom we are speaking in prayer: "Whether or not our prayer is heard depends not on the number of words, but on the fervor of our souls."2

2701 Vocal prayer is an essential element of the Christian life. To his disciples, drawn by their Master's silent prayer, Jesus teaches a vocal prayer, the Our Father. He not only prayed aloud the liturgical prayers of the synagogue but, as the Gospels show, he raised his voice to express his personal prayer, from exultant blessing of the Father to the agony of Gesthemani.3

2702 The need to involve the senses in interior prayer corresponds to a requirement of our human nature. We are body and spirit, and we experience the need to translate our feelings externally. We must pray with our whole being to give all power possible to our supplication.

2703 This need also corresponds to a divine requirement. God seeks worshippers in Spirit and in Truth, and consequently living prayer that rises from the depths of the soul. He also wants the external expression that associates the body with interior prayer, for it renders him that perfect homage which is his due.

2704 Because it is external and so thoroughly human, vocal prayer is the form of prayer most readily accessible to groups. Even interior prayer, however, cannot neglect vocal prayer. Prayer is internalized to the extent that we become aware of him "to whom we speak;"4 Thus vocal prayer becomes an initial form of contemplative prayer.

II. MEDITATION

2705 Meditation is above all a quest. The mind seeks to understand the why and how of the Christian life, in order to adhere and respond to what the Lord is asking. The required attentiveness is difficult to sustain. We are usually helped by books, and Christians do not want for them: the Sacred Scriptures, particularly the Gospels, holy icons, liturgical texts of the day or season, writings of the spiritual fathers, works of spirituality, the great book of creation, and that of history the page on which the "today" of God is written.

2706 To meditate on what we read helps us to make it our own by confronting it with ourselves. Here, another book is opened: the book of life. We pass from thoughts to reality. To the extent that we are humble and faithful, we discover in meditation the movements that stir the heart and we are able to discern them. It is a question of acting truthfully in order to come into the light: "Lord, what do you want me to do?"

2707 There are as many and varied methods of meditation as there are spiritual masters. Christians owe it to themselves to develop the desire to meditate regularly, lest they come to resemble the three first kinds of soil in the parable of the sower.5 But a method is only a guide; the important thing is to advance, with the Holy Spirit, along the one way of prayer: Christ Jesus.

2708 Meditation engages thought, imagination, emotion, and desire. This mobilization of faculties is necessary in order to deepen our convictions of faith, prompt the conversion of our heart, and strengthen our will to follow Christ. Christian prayer tries above all to meditate on the mysteries of Christ, as in lectio divina or the rosary. This form of prayerful reflection is of great value, but Christian prayer should go further: to the knowledge of the love of the Lord Jesus, to union with him.

III. CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER

2709 What is contemplative prayer? St. Teresa answers: "Contemplative prayer [oracion mental] in my opinion is nothing else than a close sharing between friends; it means taking time frequently to be alone with him who we know loves us."6 Contemplative prayer seeks him "whom my soul loves."7 It is Jesus, and in him, the Father. We seek him, because to desire him is always the beginning of love, and we seek him in that pure faith which causes us to be born of him and to live in him. In this inner prayer we can still meditate, but our attention is fixed on the Lord himself.

2710 The choice of the time and duration of the prayer arises from a determined will, revealing the secrets of the heart. One does not undertake contemplative prayer only when one has the time: one makes time for the Lord, with the firm determination not to give up, no matter what trials and dryness one may encounter. One cannot always meditate, but one can always enter into inner prayer, independently of the conditions of health, work, or emotional state. The heart is the place of this quest and encounter, in poverty ant in faith.

2711 Entering into contemplative prayer is like entering into the Eucharistic liturgy: we "gather up:" the heart, recollect our whole being under the prompting of the Holy Spirit, abide in the dwelling place of the Lord which we are, awaken our faith in order to enter into the presence of him who awaits us. We let our masks fall and turn our hearts back to the Lord who loves us, so as to hand ourselves over to him as an offering to be purified and transformed.

2712 Contemplative prayer is the prayer of the child of God, of the forgiven sinner who agrees to welcome the love by which he is loved and who wants to respond to it by loving even more.8 But he knows that the love he is returning is poured out by the Spirit in his heart, for everything is grace from God. Contemplative prayer is the poor and humble surrender to the loving will of the Father in ever deeper union with his beloved Son.

2713 Contemplative prayer is the simplest expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gift, a grace; it can be accepted only in humility and poverty. Contemplative prayer is a covenant relationship established by God within our hearts.9 Contemplative prayer is a communion in which the Holy Trinity conforms man, the image of God, "to his likeness."

2714 Contemplative prayer is also the pre-eminently intense time of prayer. In it the Father strengthens our inner being with power through his Spirit "that Christ may dwell in [our] hearts through faith" and we may be "grounded in love."10

2715 Contemplation is a gaze of faith, fixed on Jesus. "I look at him and he looks at me": this is what a certain peasant of Ars in the time of his holy curé used to say while praying before the tabernacle. This focus on Jesus is a renunciation of self. His gaze purifies our heart; the light of the countenance of Jesus illumines the eyes of our heart and teaches us to see everything in the light of his truth and his compassion for all men. Contemplation also turns its gaze on the mysteries of the life of Christ. Thus it learns the "interior knowledge of our Lord," the more to love him and follow him.11

2716 Contemplative prayer is hearing the Word of God. Far from being passive, such attentiveness is the obedience of faith, the unconditional acceptance of a servant, and the loving commitment of a child. It participates in the "Yes" of the Son become servant and the Fiat of God's lowly handmaid.

2717 Contemplative prayer is silence, the "symbol of the world to come"12 or "silent love."13 Words in this kind of prayer are not speeches; they are like kindling that feeds the fire of love. In this silence, unbearable to the "outer" man, the Father speaks to us his incarnate Word, who suffered, died, and rose; in this silence the Spirit of adoption enables us to share in the prayer of Jesus.

2718 Contemplative prayer is a union with the prayer of Christ insofar as it makes us participate in his mystery. The mystery of Christ is celebrated by the Church in the Eucharist, and the Holy Spirit makes it come alive in contemplative prayer so that our charity will manifest it in our acts.

2719 Contemplative prayer is a communion of love bearing Life for the multitude, to the extent that it consents to abide in the night of faith. The Paschal night of the Resurrection passes through the night of the agony and the tomb - the three intense moments of the Hour of Jesus which his Spirit (and not "the flesh [which] is weak") brings to life in prayer. We must be willing to "keep watch with [him] one hour."14

IN BRIEF

2720 The Church invites the faithful to regular prayer: daily prayers, the Liturgy of the Hours, Sunday Eucharist, the feasts of the liturgical year.

2721 The Christian tradition comprises three major expressions of the life of prayer: vocal prayer, meditation, and contemplative prayer. They have in common the recollection of the heart.

2722 Vocal prayer, founded on the union of body and soul in human nature, associates the body with the interior prayer of the heart, following Christ's example of praying to his Father and teaching the Our Father to his disciples.

2723 Meditation is a prayerful quest engaging thought, imagination, emotion, and desire. Its goal is to make our own in faith the subject considered, by confronting it with the reality of our own life.

2724 Contemplative prayer is the simple expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gaze of faith fixed on Jesus, an attentiveness to the Word of God, a silent love. It achieves real union with the prayer of Christ to the extent that it makes us share in his mystery.

[daniel1212]

The comparisons of Mary to Jesus in regards to sin, sex, and everything else Roman Catholicism does in their false teaching on Catholic "Mary" is egregious. They don't see how they've elevated her to a position equal to Christ. It may explain why Catholic "Mary" replaces Jesus in so much of Catholic thought and writings.

Well, they they have not fully elevated her to a position equal to Christ, but the objection to elevating her far far far above what is written (cf. 1Co. 4:5) of mortals including her, all egregiously extrapolated out of the relative little the Holy Spirit of Christ records of her. Being the God-bearer (which title they even shun in favor of the misleading "Mother of God") "according to the flesh" (as the Spirit of Christ is careful to clarify when speaking of Christ coming out from Israel: Rm. 9:5) does not require her to be sinless, anymore that her being sinless would require that of her own mother.

It is so bad that if you only want to honor Mary as Scripture does and contend against the hyper-adulation, then some charge you with "hating" the Mother of God!

[af_vet_1981]

Well now that's a new desperate attempt, for it no more shows a believer praying to someone in Heaven then the other attempts to read this into Scripture. For the simple self-evident fact is that the only request that was made, "let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me," was made while both were on earth. ... et al.

As referenced in post 198,
And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

1. Elijah invites Elisha to ask for something that Elijah can do for him before Elijah is taken away from him.
2. Elisha says, "I pray thee" let a double portion of Elijah's spirit be upon Elisha.
3. Elijah says Elisha has asked for a hard thing, but if Elisha sees Elijah taken, it shall be. If not, then no.
4. After Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven Elisha showed evidence that he had the spirit of Elijah by a miracle of parting the waters.
5. The sons of the prophets were his witnesses and testified that the spirit of Elijah rested on Elisha. They bowed down to the ground before Elisha.
6. Did Elijah have the authority to give a double portion of his spirit to Elisha ?
7. Who is the spirit of Elijah ?

[daniel1212]

I think you made a mistake in this comment Daniel.

Sick and fatigued by the flue, it was not expressed well, but it did nor refer to the CCC, but to the typical arguments seen here by RCs. who use communication btwn those in the same realm as supporting praying to created beings in Heaven as is only seen toward God in Scripture.

[af_vet_1981]

I am still awaiting your proof that they were real and these events happened - as you claim.

I do not need to disprove your truth claim, since real or parable, they do not demonstrate prayer.

And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them. And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased, And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

And he left them, and went out of the city into Bethany; and he lodged there. Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered. And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away! Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Matthew, Catholic chapter twenty one, Protestant verses twelve to thirty two,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[af_vet_1981]

Sick and fatigued by the flue,

May the LORD heal you of all disease and restore your health. I especially like the afore referenced portion of the Catechism that defines Christian prayer as "wholly directed to the Father" no matter who may be asked to join in with us.

2564 Christian prayer is a covenant relationship between God and man in Christ. It is the action of God and of man, springing forth from both the Holy Spirit and ourselves, wholly directed to the Father, in union with the human will of the Son of God made man.

[daniel1212]

Elijah invites Elisha to ask for something that Elijah can do for him before Elijah is taken away from him. Elisha says, "I pray thee" let a double portion of Elijah's spirit be upon Elisha. Elijah says Elisha has asked for a hard thing, but if Elisha sees Elijah taken, it shall be. If not, then no. After Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven Elisha showed evidence that he had the spirit of Elijah by a miracle of parting the waters. The sons of the prophets were his witnesses and testified that the spirit of Elijah rested on Elisha. They bowed down to the ground before Elisha.

So just where is the prayer to Elijah in Heaven? Even if he "took the prayer" with him then it is still not that of being prayed to in Heaven and able to hear all such, which was and remains the issue. But here there is no postal delivery service. The more Caths desperately to to provide what they can only wish the Spirit of God did then the worse it makes them look.

Did Elijah have the authority to give a double portion of his spirit to Elisha ? Who is the spirit of Elijah

It is God's Spirit, His anointing, of which a person can realize different measures and gifts. "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him." (John 3:34)

And God can gift and entrust people with the power to convey His Spirit, thus "Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost." (Acts 9:17)

It was not simply or necessarily a matter of authority as to giving a double portion, but of prophetic foreknowledge of what God would do if Elisha continued on with his master. Taking up he mantle of Elijah represented authority.

[boatbums]

Nope, your comments are the disruptive ones, not mine. Case closed.

Perhaps you don't understand what the term "disruptive" means? Who was it that started whining before this thread barely got off the ground that it should have been made a "caucus" thread because "Protestants claim they are right" and were making "a BIG DEAL over it"? That wasn't me.

And who was it who told a non-Catholic poster, "Best not to come to these threads." and "Best to accept that even your side is full of errors also."? Again, not me.

Who stated, "Safe to say, after seeing some of the postings, even the enemy can quote scripture." and "Not surprised. More of the same old Christian bashing. Gets old very fast. Makes those who hate Christians so very happy."? Nope...not me.

And, then when others refused to back down and continued to express the reasons why some Catholic doctrines are rejected, who piped up with, "At a time when Islamic fascists are attacking Christians, we still see the same old Catholic/Protestant Christian infighting. Sad. Have you forgotten that Catholics ARE CHRISTIANS."? SO, not me!

Then it was the canned canard "Well how many divisions do the Protestants have? 30,000? Give me a break! ....So talking about the past, I will simply move along and put you on posting ignore.". Who said that? Not me.

It was when I finally said to you hundreds of posts later:

"I don't see you saying the same thing on threads that set out to INTENTIONALLY attack non-Catholic believers in Christ as not "true" Christians, not "true" churches, not "true" followers of Jesus Christ. Why not? It sure sounds like plenty of your fellow Catholics don't think anyone-not-Catholic are Christians. Does this bother you or is it only when non-Catholics dare dispute Catholic doctrines on OPEN Religion Forum threads? Do you think maybe you don't have the right temperament to engage with others on these kinds of threads and might be better off sticking to devotional or caucus threads instead? Comments like yours are disruptive rather than productive here."

Instead of answering me you accuse me of being the disruptive one with my comments. And BIGGIRL has spoken, so "case closed. I think a fair-minded person could see who is willing to discuss the topic (it WAS on an OPEN thread, you know) and who didn't want to tolerate opposing discussion - in other words, was being disruptive to the thread. It seems obvious to me that some people are simply incapable of hearing their religious beliefs being criticized and they get very upset by it when they read it. That's why the Religion Moderator recommends they stick to Devotional and Caucus threads. I think it's good advice. Maybe you should take it?

[af_vet_1981]

So just where is the prayer to Elijah in Heaven? Even if he "took the prayer" with him then it is still not that of being prayed to in Heaven and able to hear all such, which was and remains the issue. But here there is no postal delivery service.

1. Elijah went into heaven.
2. Elisha saw it.
3. Elisha cried out "My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof." Elijah was taken up to heaven in a chariot of fire.
4. Elisha saw him no more.
5. Gabriel came to the Prophet Daniel and said at the beginnings of Daniel's supplications the commandment came forth to go to him.
6. Revelation has a scripture that describes golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
7. Revelation has another scripture that describes the the prayers of all saints upon the altar which was before God's throne.

[daniel1212]

Rome assembled the Bible that Protestants use. Even translated it for them. Attacking Rome is cutting off the limb you're standing on.

You mean being the magisterial discerners and stewards and translators of Divine revelation means such are the assuredly correct interpreters and teachers of it? Yes or no?

[Elsie]

Have you forgotten that Catholics ARE CHRISTIANS.

Isn't it OBVIOUS from Catholic sources that PROTs are NOT 'christians'?

[Elsie]

Abraham is a departed saint ?

ALL believers are saints; or do you NOT accept the clear teaching of the Scriptures?

[Elsie]

I shuuda read ahead; again...

[Elsie]

Well how many divisions do the Protestants have? 30,000? Give me a break!

Aren't you on the list for the revised 'estimates'?

I've seen 50,000 and 80,000 bandied about by Catholics.

Just WHERE did YOU get the 30,000 figure?

[Elsie]

And...

...use it as an excuse to no longer interact with a certain person.

Shameful.

[daniel1212]

Elijah went into heaven. Elisha saw it. Elisha cried out "My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof." Elijah was taken up to heaven in a chariot of fire. Elisha saw him no more. Gabriel came to the Prophet Daniel and said at the beginnings of Daniel's supplications the commandment came forth to go to him. Revelation has a scripture that describes golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Revelation has another scripture that describes the the prayers of all saints upon the altar which was before God's throne.

Everyone of those are simply more desperate attempts that do not constitute prayer being made to created beings in Heaven. Elisha saying "My father, my father when Elijah was being taken up to heaven is not a prayer at all, but an simply exclamation that asks nothing.

Gabriel coming to the Prophet Daniel in response to his prayer to God is not that of praying to angels.

Angels and elders offering up prayers before the judgments of the last days in memorial (Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4; f. Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15) is not even a continuous postal service, and does not constitute praying to them, or manifest the ability of created beings to hear all prayer from Heaven, which is unique to God

Give it up. It only makes you look worse.

[Elsie]

"This must not be understood superstitiously or magically, but in light of Catholic teaching that perseverance in faith, hope and love are required for salvation.

Walking back what MARY plainly said?

Shameful!!

---

Behold Catholic teaching!!!

http://www.ourladyspromise.org/scapular.php