The Roman Catholic Church has hardly been unwaveringly inerrant.
Ergo, it is quite possible for one conscience to be correct while the official stance of Church & tradition be wrong - see the current Pope, of which one may validly ask “is the Pope Catholic?” in earnest and not merely in rhetoric.
A prime example of Luther’s conscience being correct while standing alone against the whole of Church & tradition is the then-popular notion of “indulgences”: that one could literally wash away sin by paying the Church a bribe - something which the Church officially held true, and supported by whatever twisting of tradition could be applied. (Don’t tell me it was somehow not “ex cathedra” or some such, we’re talking the Church officially sanctioning the alleged literal ability of someone to bypass the Crucifixion with cash.) This being no longer an official stance of the Church & tradition points to the non-inerrancy thereof in the face of a single voice standing for an unpopular (and unprofitable) truth.
” it is troubling that Luther is now upheld as genuine reformer.”
I prefer being stuck with the errors of Luther, who did not consider himself infallible, to the errors of the current Pope.
following
The reformation was a necessary occurrence. The corruption of Rome was so extreme that it sickened any one with a conscience.
I do not disagree with More. Henry abused the church for his own purposes.
Unity is not the goal. Preaching the gospel and bring in right relation with God is. The current pope exposes how wrong the church can be. I do not need spiritual direction from a communist
re: I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen.
Taking this one statement of Luther’s one could make a case that he held his conscience to be the ultimate authority. But you would have to ignore what he said leading up to this statement. Martin Luther placed Scripture as authority over the opinions of men, even if those men were the pope and the rest of the hierarchy of the church. His conscience was informed by God’s revelation in His written Word. It was not simply his opinion that he was spouting.
With the choice of Luther, or an organization that on one hand, teaches original sin, and on the other hand, states that an appointed nee annointed man, is declared infallible, I choose Luther.
Just curious. Does the author of this article believe that the faithful members of the Roman Catholic church today should unquestioningly accept the authority of the current Pope, ignoring the things he says and does that are in violation of the Scriptures and the traditions of the Church?
For example, would it bother him that the Pope invited population control advocates (which includes abortion) to the Vatican?
See article http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3534268/posts Population Control Advocates Hobnob at the Vatican
“A recent pro-life report urges us to “resist” the “alignment” between Church authorities and this international anti-life agenda. The UN’s Sustainable Development Goals, approved by “Pope Francis and other organs of the Holy See,” require “universal access” to abortion and contraception and related “education”—proliferating initiatives “to gain direct access to children,” whether through pro-abortion youth clubs or radical “comprehensive sexuality education” for children aged “0 – 4” and above. The Vatican’s own 2015 workshop on using children as environmentalist “agents of change” said schools must “absorb” the SDGs.”
Whatever his good intentions may have been, he lead the rebellion against the western half of Christ's Body.
And thanks to his work and efforts, that western half quickly began disintegrating into splinters, and eventually making the great apostasy our new age reality.
Now our pride has us ensnared in Satan's traps while we keep building upon the sins of the past.
How do we now undo the damage that we and our ancestors have done to His Body?
I don't think we can, because we like our division too much.
We like knowing that "we are right and they are wrong" and we will fight to the death if necessary to prove how right we are.
A straight-forward question:
Were ANY of Luther’s objections against a real problem within the church, including the sale of indulgences?
To fail to recognize serious and significant divisions between the two sides is to fail to engage in actual debate.
Guys,
Interesting FR discussion on a fairly emotional subject. It is nice to see the courtesy extended by Freepers to fellow Freepers in this discussion. For some reason, FR went crazy with undue hostility during this last election cycle. Although it has not returned entirely to “normal,” this particular thread harkens to more congenial times.
These types of discussions brought by people of some knowledge are what makes FR the great site it is.
IMHO
Oldplayer
When you aren’t railing against your recent Popes, you rail against a man dead for five hundred years! Explain how you aren’t guilty of hypocrisy for the SAME denial of religious authority?
This is the Bible-based understanding of what the Christian faith is about:
Are we reconciled to God? Do we love Him and trust Him? Do we submit to His will to the extent that we’re truly able to, and do we truly want to? Are we pursuing Him and following Him out of love for Him? Inside, are we devoted to Him, so that we truly live a life of that devotion? Do we believe that God is God, and our Creator, and we have broken His righteous commandments? Do we believe we’ve sinned against Him and our sin grieves us? All of this goes hand-in-hand with believing the truth He’s revealed to us, especially the Gospel, the Good News that He gave His only begotten Son for the world, so that we could be reconciled to Him, our sins washed away, and we receive eternal life. Now if someone truly loves God, sincerely submits to His will, and truly believes what He’s revealed about His Son, Jesus Christ, then how would that person still be God’s enemy? How would someone who has renounced Satan’s rebellion against God, and embraced God and His truth be rejected by Him? Would God reject someone who sincerely admits he has sinned against Him and is in need of His mercy, forgiveness and salvation, someone who has sincerely turned away from sin and to Him, and has a heart like David’s, who had a heart after God’s own heart?
While I disagree with Protestant antinomianism, I agree that it is illogical in the extreme to abolish an entire G-d-ordained legal, ritual, and ceremonial system and then to complain about Protestant antinomianism. If there truly is a legal/ritual/ceremonial system still in effect, it is the original one that came directly from the Mouth of G-d at Sinai . . . not some completely new one that "replaced" it (G-d forbid!).
Protestantism began with chrstianity itself. Too bad Catholic/Orthodox chrstians seem unable to grasp that fact.
Yet Ratzinger also said,
" “Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority there still stands one's own conscience, which must be obeyed before all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority. Conscience confronts [the individual] with a supreme and ultimate tribunal, and one which in the last resort is beyond the claim of external social groups, even of the official church " (Pope Benedict XVI [then Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger], Commentary on the Documents of Vatican II, ed. Vorgrimler, 1968, on Gaudium et spes, part 1,chapter 1, emp. mine.)
Of course this cannot be allowed to be determinative of truth, yet the reasons why Luther's conscience let him to dissent from Rome was that based upon his judgment the latter had much gone off the rails, which is just was traditional RCs do who pick and choose from V2 and modern teaching, and sometimes are even formally part of sects and schismatic groups of "true Catholics."
Yet it is also stated by pope Paul VI, in closing V2,
"the teaching authority of the Church, even though not wishing to issue extraordinary dogmatic pronouncements, has made thoroughly known its authoritative teaching." (https://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/speeches/1965/documents/hf_p-vi_spe_19651207_epilogo-concilio.html) And that "it has as much authority and far greater importance than the Council of Nicea". Elsewhere he has called it "the greatest of Councils", and "even greater than the Council of Trent."[10] Perhaps the most clear cut statement is to be found in a letter to Archbishop Lefebvre demanding his submission to the post-Conciliar Church: (http://www.the-pope.com/wvat2tec.html)
You have no right any more to bring up the distinction between the doctrinal and the pastoral that you use to support your acceptance of certain texts of Vatican Council II and your rejection of others. It is true that the matters decided in any Council do not all call for an assent of the same quality; only what the Council affirms in its 'definitions' as a truth of faith or as bound up with faith requires the assent of faith. Nevertheless, the rest also form a part of the SOLEMN MAGISTERIUM of the Church, to be trustingly accepted and sincerely put into practice by every Catholic.(Epistle Cum te to Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, 11 Oct, 1976, published in Notitiae, No. 12, 1976.)
Based upon his judgment of what historical teaching states, Luther dissented from Rome, and likewise based upon their judgment of what historical teaching states, traditional RCs dissent from Rome, the difference being a matter of degrees, and the ultimate authority on historical teaching, with Scripture revealing the Catholic church to be distinctively absent in Scripture and contrary it, and requires dissent from it, with the NT church itself having begun in dissent from the historical magisterium
Yet which dissent, and that of trad. RCs, is contrary to so much historical teaching which is contrary to the laity judging who is a true pope and whether what they publicly teach is valid or not:
Epistola Tua: To the shepherds alone was given all power to teach, to judge, to direct; on the faithful was imposed the duty of following their teaching, of submitting with docility to their judgment , and of allowing themselves to be governed, corrected, and guided by them in the way of salvation.
Thus, it is an absolute necessity for the simple faithful to submit in mind and heart to their own pastors, and for the latter to submit with them to the Head and Supreme Pastor.... Similarly, it is to give proof of a submission which is far from sincere to set up some kind of opposition between one Pontiff and another. Those who, faced with two differing directives, reject the present one to hold to the past, are not giving proof of obedience to the authority which has the right and duty to guide them; and in some ways they resemble those who, on receiving a condemnation, would wish to appeal to a future council, or to a Pope who is better informed.
On this point what must be remembered is that in the government of the Church, except for the essential duties imposed on all Pontiffs by their apostolic office, each of them can adopt the attitude which he judges best according to times and circumstances. Of this he alone is the judge. It is true that for this he has not only special lights, but still more the knowledge of the needs and conditions of the whole of Christendom, for which, it is fitting, his apostolic care must provide. - Epistola Tua (1885), Apostolic Letter of Pope Leo XIII; http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage_print.asp?number=403215&language=en
"It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of per sons, the Pastors and the flock...the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors ." - VEHEMENTER NOS, an Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906.
Nor can we pass over in silence the audacity of those who, not enduring sound doctrine, contend that "without sin and without any sacrifice of the Catholic profession assent and obedience may be refused to those judgments and decrees of the Apostolic See, whose object is declared to [only] concern the Church's general good and her rights and discipline, so only it does not touch the dogmata of faith and morals." But no one can be found not clearly and distinctly to see and understand how grievously this is opposed to the Catholic dogma of the full power given from God by Christ our Lord Himself to the Roman Pontiff of feeding, ruling and guiding the Universal Church. (Quanta Cura. Encyclical of Pope Pius IX promulgated on December 8, 1864; http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanta.htm)
20. Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent... if the Supreme Pontiffs in their official documents purposely pass judgment on a matter up to that time under dispute, it is obvious that that matter, according to the mind and will of the Pontiffs, cannot be any longer considered a question open to discussion among theologians. - PIUS XII, HUMANI GENERI, August 1950; http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html
The authority (of papal encyclicals) is undoubtedly great". It is, in a sense, sovereign. It is the teaching of the supreme pastor and teacher of the Church. Hence the faithful have a strict obligation to receive this teaching with an infinite respect. A man must not be content simply not to contradict it openly and in a more or less scandalous fashion. An internal mental assent is demanded. It should be received as the teaching sovereignly authorized within the Church." - Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton, esteemed Catholic theologian and professor of fundamental dogmatic theology at the Catholic University of America, who served as a peritus for Cardinal Ottaviani at the Second Vatican Council. Extract from the American Ecclesiastical Review, Vol. CXXI, August, 1949; http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/encyclicals/docauthority.htm
For it is quite foreign to everyone bearing the name of a Christian to trust his own mental powers with such pride as to agree only with those things which he can examine from their inner nature, and to imagine that the Church, sent by God to teach and guide all nations, is not conversant with present affairs and circumstances; or even that they must obey only in those matters which she has decreed by solemn definition as though her other decisions might be presumed to be false or putting forward insufficient motive for truth and honesty.
Quite to the contrary, a characteristic of all true followers of Christ, lettered or unlettered, is to suffer themselves to be guided and led in all things that touch upon faith or morals by the Holy Church of God through its Supreme Pastor the Roman Pontiff, who is himself guided by Jesus Christ Our Lord. - CASTI CONNUBII, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI; https://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19301231_casti-connubii.html
...when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed ; when we love the Pope, we do not say that he has not spoken clearly enough, almost as if he were forced to repeat to the ear of each one the will clearly expressed so many times not only in person, but with letters and other public documents ; we do not place his orders in doubt, adding the facile pretext of those unwilling to obey – that it is not the Pope who commands, but those who surround him; we do not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority ; we do not set above the authority of the Pope that of other persons, however learned, who dissent from the Pope, who, even though learned, are not holy, because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope.
The Bishops form the most sacred part of the Church, that which instructs and governs men by divine right; and so he who resists them and stubbornly refuses to obey their word places himself outside the Church [cf. Matt. 18:18]. But obedience must not limit itself to matters which touch the faith: its sphere is much more vast: it extends to all matters which the episcopal power embraces. - (Pope Saint Pius X, Allocution Vi ringrazio to priests on the 50th anniversary of the Apostolic Union, November 18, 1912, as found at http://www.christorchaos.com/?q=content/choosing-ignore-pope-leo-xiii-and-pope-saint-pius-x
to scrutinize the actions of a bishop, to criticize them, does not belong to individual Catholics, but concerns only those who, in the sacred hierarchy, have a superior power; above all, it concerns the Supreme Pontiff, for it is to him that Christ confided the care of feeding not only all the lambs, but even the sheep [cf. John 21:17]. - Est Sane Molestum (1888) Apostolic Letter of Pope Leo XIII; http://www.novusordowatch.org/est-sane-molestum-leo-xiii.htm
In addition, as concerns social teaching, The "Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church" (2005) states:
80. In the Church’s social doctrine the Magisterium is at work in all its various components and expressions. … Insofar as it is part of the Church’s moral teaching, the Church’s social doctrine has the same dignity and authority as her moral teaching. It is authentic Magisterium, which obligates the faithful to adhere to it . - http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html
And it is quite well evidenced that the popes last encyclical (http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20150524_enciclica-laudato-si.html) is intended to teach what the Church's moral teaching demands as regards ecology and economy. (172 references in this encyclical cite church teaching and prelates for support).
Thus we either have Trad. RCs contradicting past papal teaching in asserting the modern papal and magisterial teaching contradicts the past, or Rome's interpretation of herself is to be trusted.
If the former is the case then neither evangelicals nor Luther cannot be condemned for seeking to ascertain the veracity of RC teaching in the light of the most ancient and trustworthy historical church teaching, that of the NT, and in which Catholicism is substantially absent and contrary to .
Providing what the traditionalist leaves out in order to hide the basis for Luther's conviction:
Luther""Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Holy Scriptures or by evident reason-for I can believe neither pope nor councils alone, as it is clear that they have erred repeatedly and contradicted themselves-I consider myself convicted by the testimony of Holy Scripture, which is my basis; my conscience is captive to the Word of God. Thus I cannot and will not recant, because acting against one's conscience is neither safe nor sound. God help me. Amen.” p. 581, line 23 to p. 582, line 2 in Reichstagsakten. Reichstagsakten stands for Deutsche Reichstagsakten, Jüngere Reihe. Deutsche Reichstagsakten unter Kaiser Karl V., vols. 1 -, ed. Historische Kommission bei der Bayeruschen Akademie der Wissenschaften (Gotha, 1893-; 2d ed. [reprint] Göttingen, 1962-), as referenced in "Luther: Man Between God and the Devil" (English edition, Yale, 1989, p. 39),}
RC traditionalist:
Unless I am convinced by the selected testimony of the historical Holy Catholic Church as I reason them to apply-for I can believe neither modern popes nor councils alone, as it is clear that they have erred repeatedly and contradicted themselves-I consider myself convicted by the testimony of the historical Holy Catholic Church which is my basis; my conscience is captive to the Word of God. Thus I cannot and will not recant from my dissent against the modernist teaching such as I find in Vatican Two because acting against one's conscience is neither safe nor sound. Amen.”
For as St. Thomas Aquinas says:
St. Thomas Aquinas says: "Anyone upon whom the ecclesiastical authority, in ignorance of the true facts, impose a demand that offends against his clear conscience, should perish in excommunication rather than violate his conscience. - ST. THOMAS AQUINAS, LECTURA ROMANA IN PRIMUM SENTENTIARUM PETRI LOMBARDI, dist. 38, Q. 2, art. 4 (J.F. Boyle & L.E. Boyle eds., 2006); http://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1090&context=jcls
Ambrose: …constantly pray ‘Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since thou hast its KEYS. Anselm: It suffices, O Lady, that thou willest it, and our SALVATION is certain.
Antoninus: …souls protected by Mary, and on which she casts her eyes, are NECESSARILY JUSTIFIED AND SAVED.
Athanasius: …And, thou, O Lady, wast filled with grace, that thou mightiest be the way of our SALVATION and the means of ascent to the heavenly Kingdom.
Bonaventure: …the gates of heaven will open to all who confide in the protection of Mary. Blessed are they who know thee, O Mother of God, for the knowledge of THEE is the high road to everlasting life, and the publication of thy virtues is the way of ETERNAL SALVATION . Give ear, O ye nations; and all you who desire heaven , serve, honor Mary, and certainly you will find ETERNAL LIFE.
She says, "He that shall find Me shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord. "Qui me invenerit, inveniet vitam, et hauriet salutem a Domino."
Listen," exclaims St. Bonaventure on these words, "listen, all you who desire the kingdom of God: honor the most Blessed Virgin Mary, and you will find life and eternal salvation." "Audite qui ingredi cupitis regnum Dei: Virginem Mariam honorate, et invenietis vitam et salutem perpetuam."-psalt. B.V.ps.48.
Ephem: …devotion to the divine Mother…is the unlocking of the heavenly Jerusalem.
Fulgetius: …by Mary God descended from Heaven into the world, that by HER man might ascend from earth to Heaven. Guerric: …he who serves Mary and for whom she intercedes, is as CERTAIN of heaven as if he were already there…and those who DO NOT serve Mary will NOT BE SAVED.
Richard of Laurence: Mary, in fine, is the mistress of heaven; for there she commands as she wills, and ADMITS whom she wills.
“The Catholic Church has always and with justice put all her hope and trust in the Mother of God.”
(Leo XIII: Encyclical, Supreme Apostolatus, September 1, 1883.) — [p. 32, no. 104]
“... Yet our manner of praying to the Blessed Virgin has something in common with our worship of God so that the Church even addressed to her the words with which we pray to God: ‘Have mercy on sinners.’”
"Only She Can Help You"
by Father Nicholas Gruner, S.T.L., S.T.D. (Cand.)
In this letter introducing The Fatima Crusader Issue 38, Father Gruner discusses the growing lies and deception about Russia's errors and the consecration of that nation. He also reminds us that, while it is urgent that we be informed about and fight for Our Lady's cause, we must ask for Her help and intercession.
 |
| In the Fatima sanctuary, at the exact spot where Our Lady appeared, Father Gruner pays homage to Her while touching the original statue of Fatima. Father Gruner was recently graced with this rare opportunity since normally this sacred image is always protected by a glass covering which completely surrounds it all day long. |
Mary Leads Her Servants to Heaven
by St. Alphonsus de Liguori
In this article taken from The Glories of Mary, Saint Alphonsus explains that there are countless souls in Heaven who are there now only because Mary, by Her powerful intercession, led them there. If a soul persists in true devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, She will certainly lead that soul to Heaven.
Hail Mary, Full of Grace
by Father Stefano Manelli, S.T.D.
It is truly a treasure to have a strong devotion to Our Lady, for it is She who unites us to Jesus and brings us to Heaven, as this article explains.
Mary, Our Life, Our Sweetness, Our Hope
by St. Alphonsus de Liguori
St. Alphonsus de Liguori explains how Mary is our life, how She is our sweetness, and how She is our hope.
The historical record of the worship of Mary accumulated by St. Alphonsus de Liguori who wrote “The Glories of Mary” in the year 1745, which has been since translated into English and printed again and again and again with the full affirmation and imprimatur of the official Roman Catholic Church. In this book there is the sum of all the glories of Mary which has been vouchsafe to the Roman Catholic Church and the Church itself calls upon all its constituents to give Mary that honor she is due. She is identified as Mary, our Queen; Mary, our mother; Mary, our life; Mary, our sweetness; Mary, our hope; Mary, our help; Mary, our Mediatress; Mary, our advocate; Mary, our guardian; and Mary, our salvation. It is said that Mary delivers us from hell, Mary delivers us from purgatory, and Mary leads us to heaven. And it should be said that de Liguori, who collected all the Marion dogma and devotion, was himself one of the most celebrated and revered authorities in the Roman Catholic Church. De Liguori was himself a cardinal in life, and a saint in death.
Jesus said "Without Me you can do nothing". In this crisis which looms ahead of us, Our Lady has told us that we need Her help, Her intercession. We must ask for Her help with the Rosary and the Scapular.
At Fatima, Our Lady told us very plainly that "Only I can help you". Today more than ever is this so true.
Pray the Rosary and sacrifice yourself for Our Lady.
I urge you to also make some sacrifices as Our Lady of Fatima asked us. For those who are able, do some fasting. If you can, abstain from meat by eating meat only during one meal a day. Try to do this for two days, even ten days or 30 days. Of course we should abstain totally from meat every Friday.
Jesus and Mary — Our Hope
It is so urgent that we reach as many souls as possible before it is too late. Let us be of good cheer and remember the words of Jesus to each of us, "It's never too late to have recourse to Jesus and Mary." That is why it is so important to reach the many millions of souls who do not know this, and who do not know the grave dangers lying in wait for their souls.
No, we must never lose hope. Mary is our hope. She can obtain for us what we cannot by ourselves. Read what St. Alphonsus has to say regarding confidence in Our Lady's intercession in "Mary Leads Her Servants to Heaven". Father Manelli also reminds us of the importance of devotion to Our Lady. (See "Hail Mary, Full of Grace"). Our Blessed Mother tells us to turn to Her in confidence. She tells us repeatedly to ask Her intercession through the frequent fervent praying of the Rosary. (See "The Rosary"). She tells us we must pray the Rosary every day. She wants us to pray it many times a day.
http://fatima.org/crusader/cr38/cr38pg2.asp
"Blessed is he whose interior offers the Blessed Virgin Mary a place of repose." Devotion towards the Blessed Virgin remains in all who are the inheritance of Our Lord; that is to say, in all who will praise Him eternally in Heaven.
O, how many blessed souls are now in Heaven who would never have been there had not Mary, by Her powerful intercession, led them thither. I made that in the heavens there should rise light that never faileth. Cardinal Hugo, in his commentary on the above text of Ecclesiasticus, says in the name of Mary, "I have caused as many saints in Heaven through Her intercession, who would never have been there but through Her ."
...in the words of St. Ambrose, "Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since Thou hast its keys." "Aperi nobis, O Virgo coelum, cujus claves habes." Nay more, the Church says, that "Thou art its gate."
St. Antoninus tells us "that this divine Mother has already, by Her assistance and prayers, obtained Heaven for us, provided we put no obstacle in the way."23 Hence, says Abbot Guerric, "he who serves Mary, and for whom She intercedes, is as certain of Heaven as if he was already there."24 St. John Damascene also says, "that to serve Mary and be Her courtier is the greatest honor we can possibly possess; for to serve the Queen of Heaven is already to reign there, and live under Her commands is more than to govern."25 On the other hand, he adds, "that those who do not serve Mary will not be saved; for those who are deprived of the help of this great Mother are also deprived of that of Her Son and of the whole court of heaven."26
23. "Coeleste nobis regnum, suo interventu auxiliis, et precibus, impetravit."—Paciucch. Sup. Salve Reg. exc. I.
24. "Qui Virgini famulatur, ita securus est de paradiso, ac si esset in paradiso."
25. "Summus honor, servire Mariæ, et de ejus esse familia; etenim ei servire, regnare est; et ejus agi frænis, summa libertas."
26. "Gens quæ non servierit illi, peribit; gentes destitutæ tantæ Matris auxilio, destituuntur auxilio Filii et totius curi’‘ coelestis."— De Laud. B. M. I. 4.
Cardinal Hugo http://fatima.org/crusader/cr38/cr38pg3.asp
These threads are always such fun and solve so much.
How about one debating the merits of Apple versus Windows systems?
More good information would come out of that.
Better for Luther to defend erroneous conscience than the corruption and debauchery that exists and has existed for so long a time within Catholcism.