Theologian: Shared Communion With Protestants Would be Blasphemy and Sacrilege

National Catholic Register ^ | January 2, 2017 | Edward Pentin

[BlessedBeGod]

...If the Church were to change its rules on shared Eucharistic Communion it would “go against Revelation and the Magisterium”, leading Christians to “commit blasphemy and sacrilege,” an Italian theologian has warned.

Drawing on the Church’s teaching based on Sacred Scripture and Tradition, Msgr. Nicola Bux, a former consulter to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, stressed that non-Catholic Christians must have undertaken baptism and confirmation in the Catholic Church, and repented of grave sin through sacramental confession, in order to be able to receive Jesus in the Eucharist.

Msgr. Bux was responding to the Register about concerns that elements of the current pontificate might be sympathetic of a form of “open Communion” proposed by the German Protestant theologian, Jürgen Moltmann.

The concerns have arisen primarily due to the Holy Father’s own comments on Holy Communion and Lutherans, his apparent support for some remarried divorcees to receive Holy Communion, and how others have used his frequently repeated maxim about the Eucharist: that it is “not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak.”

The debate specifically over intercommunion with Christian denominations follows recent remarks by Cardinal Walter Kasper who, in a Dec. 10 interview with Avvenire, said he hopes Pope Francis’ next declaration will open the way for intercommunion with other denominations “in special cases.”

The German theologian said shared Eucharistic communion is just a matter of time, and that the Pope’s recent participation in the Reformation commemoration in Lund has given “a new thrust” to the “ecumenical process.”

Pope Francis has often expressed his admiration for Cardinal Kasper’s theology whose thinking has significantly influenced…the priorities of this pontificate, particularly on the Eucharist.

For Moltmann, Holy Communion is “the Lord's supper, not something organized by a church or a denomination”...

[metmom]

Well, considering the circumstances of Jesus birth and their charge in bringing Him up, can you imagine how they felt about losing track of Him?

How they must have felt they let God down by not being more conscientious?

[boatbums]

I always thought it was weird that saying prayers was supposed to be some kind of punishment for my confessed sins.

[Mark17]

The dread or fear to disobey or displease Him should be tightly coupled with a love and earnest desire to please Him and be told by Him "Well done thou good and faithful servant!"

I gotta agree with rdmd1. An unsaved, unregenerate man, can not work out his salvation with fear and trembling, because he DOESN'T have any salvation to work out in the first place.
We born again Christians DO have assurance of salvation. If other people don't, maybe they should find out why. They shouldn't be utterly petrified at the thought of dying, unless they have never been born again. If that is the case, they really SHOULD be scared to death of dying, because the lake of fire awaits them. I have no idea why people choose the lake of fire over Heaven, but they do it by a WIDE, WIDE, WIDE margin. I have no idea what choice you made, but I hope you made the right one. It's a lot easier to get into the lake of fire, than it will be, to get out of it. Me and my friends here, have no intention of going there, and we ARE working out our salvation with fear and trembling, because we HAVE salvation in the first place. On the other hand, untold millions WILL choose the lake of fire over Heaven. That is too bad, but that's on them.

[boatbums]

And then Catholics have the audacity to wonder where many people raised Catholic see God as a harsh demanding God of judgment and condemnation, someone they are afraid of who is NOT a loving heavenly Father. And then after telling people to be afraid of God and putting them back into bondage, Catholics chide them for not seeing God as loving and merciful.

That brings us back to the issue of prayers to Mary and "saints". In reading some sources of Martin Luther's writings, I found:

Luther at this time was influenced by the Mariology of Bernard of Clairvaux. Later recollecting on this influence, Luther stated:
St. Bernard, who was a pious man otherwise, also said: "Behold how Christ chides, censures, and condemns the Pharisees so harshly throughout the Gospel, whereas the Virgin Mary is always kind and gentle and never utters an unfriendly word." From this he inferred: "Christ is given to scolding and punishing, but Mary has nothing but sweetness and love." Therefore Christ was generally feared; we fled from Him and took refuge with the saints, calling upon Mary and others to deliver us from our distress. We regarded them all as holier than Christ. Christ was only the executioner, while the saints were our mediators.[4]

He also recollected,

Christ in His mercy was hidden from my eyes. I wanted to become justified before God through the merits of the saints. This gave rise to the petition for the intercession of the saints. On a portrait St. Bernard, too, is portrayed adoring the Virgin Mary as she directs her Son, Christ, to the breasts that suckled Oh, how many kisses we bestowed on Mary![5]

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2013/10/martin-luther-believed-in-devotion-to.html

[21twelve]

“...by not being more conscientious?”

I agree - but I guess I was sticking up for Mary and Joseph about the difference in cultures back then. Not like today where Mom and Dad take the subway into the city and lose track of junior!

Now - would a perfect believer in God, and knowing that Jesus was pre-ordained by God to do great things (which Mary knew) - would they have even been anxious? I suppose so, but I could also see them saying something like “...but we know that God is watching over you and there was nothing to worry about.”

Of course that is our every-day dillema. Yes, God is watching over us and taking care of us, but bad things still happen. So we are anxious sometimes. Maybe the key there is “sometimes”; it IS good to be anxious and prudent sometimes, but not to always be living in fear.

[Springfield Reformer]

It's a rookie mistake to think the same Greek root should always have the same English sense. That would be incompetent. Phobos can represent more than one English idea. Fear, yes, but also reverence and respect. It comes down to syntax combined with context. Clearly in the contested passages different kinds of fear are being discussed. John's fear involves torment, the fear of divine punishment. That kind of fear is cast out by love. Period. Whatever Jesus is teaching in Matthew 10, it cannot be that believers must live in tormented fear of divine judgment. That would make the Apostle John a liar. Jesus' encouragements in Matthew 10 were NOT designed to make the disciples doubtful of their standing before God, but exactly the opposite, to harden them against the temptation to fear their human persecuters, whose power was nothing compared to that of the awesome God whom they reverenced. Such a passage cannot force God into a contradiction. I find that line of reasoning odious. Again, you can go there if it pleases you. But it smells of brimstone to me. I will take another way.

Peace,

SR

[Springfield Reformer]

Zactly. This is no academic matter to me. I grew up in a home where the fear factor was big. It doesn’t help. It doesn’t make someone better than they would be if they just trusted Jesus enough to take Him at his word. An atmosphere of continuous worry that at the last moment a lifetime of good deeds could be overturned by a single twisted thought at the end of life is a nightmare environment to live in. Nobody can really handle it. So what happens is they back it up a little, say there is some really grand sin that could cost you your standing in grace, but the lesser ones? No big deal. See what happens there? People start building rationalizations outside of divine truth on why they will probably be OK, and it always comes down to shifting the focus of trust from Jesus to the self. It’s a heart-sickening disaster.

Peace,

SR

[mrobisr]

While I do agree with a few things of the rcc abortion being one, but it’s very few and not on where my salvation comes from...

“For example, we have been (are) saved (via Baptism), we are being saved (via cooperation with God’s Grace in the Sacraments of Confession and Holy Eucharist) and we trust in the hope we will be saved should we continue to cooperate with God on Earth.”

I wasn’t saved by baptism I was bought and saved by the precious blood of my Savior Jesus Christ. Every human that has been saved on this planet has or will be saved only by the blood of the Lamb of God.

1 Peter 1:19, John 1:29, Acts 20:28, Romans 3:25, 1 Cor 5:7 & 6:20, Revelation 5:9

“Sacraments of Confession and Holy Eucharist”

Still the blood of Jesus Christ that saves you not your church nor anyone else can do anything to save you. As your so called church presents the “sacraments” they are and abomination to God, but as the rest of use they point right back at the sacrifice of Jesus Christ His shed Blood.

“cooperate”

I have read the Bible many a times from front to back and don’t recall having to cooperate to be saved.

If you mean to have faith and faith alone then yes, but add all your what can I do to please God then you are “dead” wrong.

Romans 4:16
For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

You have to quit thinking what you can do, but instead giving thanks and praise the Living God through Jesus Christ for what He has already done for you!

I was saved before the first atom of the universe was created, how about you?
Eph 1:4, 2 Timothy 1:9, Ephesians 2:10

[Mark17]

You were screwed already. Then you found Jesus.

LOL. Sorry for using such graphically blunt language, but I think it accurately describes my past.

I always thought it was weird that saying prayers was supposed to be some kind of punishment for my confessed sins.

I admit I never thought of it from that standpoint. When I was in that "other religion," I have to admit, like Elsie quoted, I was just another heathen, mouthing a bunch of words, thinking I would be heard, because of my much speaking. I was, of course, just another poor deluded soul, and was not praying at all. It is weird, however, that members (not all) of that other religion, even if they thought of it as praying, might consider praying to be punishment for committing myriads of mortal sins. After that, I no longer told the priest about all my sins, because he started trying to pry into my personal life. I don't know if he did that, because he was getting his jollies, or if he really wanted to honestly help me stop sinning. I don't know which.

Anyway Elsie, I know what you mean, it gets old, refuting the same thing 5 million times, even though you told me a million times not to exaggerate. 😄

[Mark17]

And then Catholics have the audacity to wonder where many people raised Catholic see God as a harsh demanding God of judgment and condemnation, someone they are afraid of who is NOT a loving heavenly Father.

Hmmmm, that sounds more like Allah than anything else.

[Mark17]

People start building rationalizations outside of divine truth on why they will probably be OK, and it always comes down to shifting the focus of trust from Jesus to the self. It’s a heart-sickening disaster.

When I was in that other religion, I knew most of them were thinking they would probably be OK. I was not one of those. I was always scared I would get zapped by God into the lake of fire. Maybe that's why I came to Jesus, because I knew in my heart of hearts, that I wasn't going to make it.

[af_vet_1981]

It's a rookie mistake to think the same Greek root should always have the same English sense. That would be incompetent.

Certainly there is commanded (and commended) fear, and there is prohibited fear (when one does not do what is commanded because one is fearful). When one loves the LORD with all one's heart, soul, and strength, and loves one's neighbor as oneself, there is no fear of fear, so to speak.

They all had a familiarity with the ancient languages of Latin, Greek, Hebrew, and often many more. They came on the historical scene at a time when the knowledge of early biblical texts and language was exploding. Such a flowering of interest and expertise was unique. Bible historian, Gordon Campbell, has observed:

The population from which scholars can now be drawn is much larger than in the seventeenth century, but it would be difficult now to bring together a group of more than fifty scholars with the range of languages and knowledge of other disciplines that characterized the KJB Translators. (Bible – The Story of the King James V

Phobos can represent more than one English idea. Fear, yes, but also reverence and respect. It comes down to syntax combined with context. Clearly in the contested passages different kinds of fear are being discussed.

Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Matthew, Catholic chapter ten, Protestant verses twenty six to thirty one,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

From this passage in Matthew the KJV translators rendered these four Greek words derived from Phobos into the English word fear.
1. φοβεῖσθε
2. φοβεῖσθε
3. φοβηθῆτε
4. φοβεῖσθε

And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Luke, Catholic chapter twelve, Protestant verses four to five,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

From this passage in Luke the KJV translators rendered these four Greek words derived from Phobos into the English word fear.
1. φοβηθῆτε
2. φοβηθῆτε
3. φοβήθητε
4. φοβήθητε

And now, Israel, what doth the Lord thy God require of thee, but to fear the Lord thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, To keep the commandments of the Lord, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good? Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the Lord's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day. Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment. Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.

Deuteronomy, Catholic chapter ten, Protestant verses twelve to twenty,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James



Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Hebrews, Catholic chapter ten, Protestant verses twenty two to thirty nine,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[MHGinTN]

AMEN! So succinctly stated even a Catholic should get it.

[Springfield Reformer]

I fear you spent a great deal of time and effort not understanding what I said about fear, but worse, I can do nothing more for you at this time. I am sorry.

Peace,

SR

[imardmd1]

Re Jn. 3:15:

Hi. What you’re saying sounds about right. I think it still needs some sort of helper in the English to get the sense across, so if “may/might” were struck, you’d have to still do something extra to clarify the exact shade of meaning.

Finishing up on this problematic translation/interpretation:

*********

For your edification, an illuminating excerpt illustrating a properly constructed rendering
of the subjunctive mode in John 3 passage we were discussing:

From the volume "THE GOSPELS: A Precise Translation"

from the Byzantine/Majority Textform
Compared with the Textus Receptus and
A Chronological Harmony Embedded

by Dr. Fred Wittman; Freely available from Happy Heralds, Inc. (click here)

John 3:14-18*

¹⁴ And according as Moses lifted^h high the serpentⁱ in the desert^k, in this way
it is absolutely necessary for the Son of ^/Man^f to be lifted^h high ¹⁵ in order that
everyone who is persistently committing trust unto Him not perish, but have
eternal absolute life.
¹⁶ For The God so loved^q the world, so that He gave His ^/Only Begotten ^/Son,
in order that everyone persistently committing trust unto Him ^onot perish but
^ocontinually have Eternal Absolute Life. ¹⁷ For The God did not send^u His ^/Son
into the world in order that He ^ojudge the world, but in order that the world ^obe saved
through Him. ¹⁸ The one persistently committing trust unto Him is not being judged.
But^j the one not persistently committing trust already has been permanently judged
because he has not permanently committed trust unto the name of The Only Begotten
Son of The God.

Meaning of superscripted indices:

* = the words may, might, will, would, shall, should usually translated to indicate ubjunctive mode need not and do not appear in this passage, thus removing ambiguity as to the exact sense of the Greek syntax as it was intended to appear to the first-century Greek reader

/ = denotes that the word is articulate
f = Human h = exalted
i = snake
j = articulation continued k = Num. 21:6-9
o = subjunctive
q = sovereignly prefer over self and others
u = with a commission implied
v = intermediate agency

*********

[Springfield Reformer]

That’s a great example of a well translated subjunctive. Thanks for keeping on digging. Finding that was worth the effort.

Peace,

SR

[metmom]

Yes, but still, something happening to one of your children?

Son of God or not, as a mother, that is traumatic.

You’d rather it happen to you than see anything happen to one of them.

It;’s just a mother’s natural instinct.

[metmom]

So true.

[metmom]

So what happens is they back it up a little, say there is some really grand sin that could cost you your standing in grace, but the lesser ones? No big deal. See what happens there? People start building rationalizations outside of divine truth on why they will probably be OK, and it always comes down to shifting the focus of trust from Jesus to the self.

Hence, that categorization of sins into *mortal* and *venial*.

And the whole unscriptural theology built around that.

[metmom]

Heh, sometimes I’d lost count of how many Our Father’s or Hail Mary’s I’d said and was afraid of not having said enough so that my sins wouldn’t be forgiven.

So I’d say an extra couple, thinking that God would cut me some slack for being conscientious and doing more than I needed.

I’d have a little in the bank for next time if I went over but at least I’d met the minimum and had the forgiveness. WHEW!!!!

At least until after mass on Sunday morning. I was always pretty sure I could stay out of trouble at least over night.

What a brutal way to live, in constant fear.