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To: Maudeen

I’ll play the “Devil’s Advocate” (heh) here and ask what about the millions that lived and died before Christ was even born or who otherwise never had the opportunity to reject Jesus?


4 posted on 10/29/2016 3:28:45 PM PDT by LouieFisk
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To: LouieFisk

Like the tribes in the Amazon.


6 posted on 10/29/2016 3:32:05 PM PDT by dp0622 (IThe only thing an upper crust conservative hates more than a liberal is a middle class conservative)
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To: LouieFisk

“what about the millions that lived and died before Christ was even born or who otherwise never had the opportunity to reject Jesus?”

A common answer is “we don’t know, but we do know about those, you for example, who have had that opportunity.”


9 posted on 10/29/2016 3:40:50 PM PDT by ifinnegan (Democrats kill babies and harvest their organs to sell)
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To: LouieFisk

This might offer some light on the subject. There are other references on this site as well. https://gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-salvation.html


19 posted on 10/29/2016 3:51:04 PM PDT by Maudeen (No one on this earth is too far gone for Jesus.)
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To: LouieFisk
who otherwise never had the opportunity to reject Jesus?

For the Jews, according to Jesus (Luke 16), they have the law and the prophets. God's requirements and plan of redemption had already been revealed to them. For everyone else, the existence of God has been abundantly evident in His creation.

The apostle Paul explains all this in Romans chapters 1 & 2.

24 posted on 10/29/2016 3:55:52 PM PDT by tbpiper
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To: LouieFisk

The answer is we don’t know. But most were probably damned eternally. That said anyone that truly seeks will find. The Bible says that those in the past “looked forward to this day. Abraham believed it was coming and it was credited to him as righteousness”

As to those who haven’t heard today, if they’re lack of hearing bothers you then become a missionary.


47 posted on 10/29/2016 4:27:23 PM PDT by Fai Mao (PIAPS for Prison 2016)
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To: LouieFisk

I think that’s a very fair question.

We serve a God that means business, but he is a also a just God.

Meaning that whatever He decides to do with those people’s souls is fair and final.

As far as us mortals, we just don’t know. We only know for sure what happens to those who accept Christ, and what happens to those who reject Him.


52 posted on 10/29/2016 4:37:15 PM PDT by MichaelCorleone (Jesus Christ is not a religion. He's the Truth.)
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To: LouieFisk
I’ll play the “Devil’s Advocate” (heh) here and ask what about the millions that lived and died before Christ was even born or who otherwise never had the opportunity to reject Jesus?

Your trite old phrase is the standard phrase of those who are antagonistic toward Christians and our beliefs. You even do a giggle (heh) in the same place that people who are trying to provoke us, do.

But, the answer is still the same:

First, there is a natural revelation of God the Father in nature: "What may be known of God is manifest in them for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse," (Romans 1:19,20).

Second, the vastness of the universe gives testimony about God the Father: "When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars that you have established; what are human beings that you are mindful of them, mortals that you care for them," (Psalm 8:3,4).

Bible expositor Don stewart (not the televangelist Don Steward), notes alongside these passages, that God is not nature. God is divine and Holy. Nature, after the sin of Adam and Even, is corrupt and fallen from the level of God's perfect creation. Stewart notes that nature itself proclaims the Heavenly Father in Psalms 19:1-6: "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion, like a champion rejoicing to run his course. It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is hidden from its heat.
These passages make it very clear that God has pointed to Himself in nature. Even the people you point out, ". . . the millions that lived and died before Christ was even born or who otherwise never had the opportunity tio reject Jesus," have always been accountable to God for understanding, responding to, and honoring the revelations that God has given them.

In the New Testament, Matthew points out that there are various degrees of God's judgment: "Then He [Jesus] began to upbraid the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you (Matthew 11:20-22).

Again, Stewart points out, "There is a principle found throughout the entire Bible which teaches that judgment is based upon the amount of knowledge that the person has [responded to]. According to the Old Testament, those who belonged to the covenant people, Israel, were judged on a much stricter basis than those who did not belong.

Humans are clearly held responsible for responded to the degree of revelation God has given. God will apparently visit judgment up people who recognized that He has given clues and responded however little they could. He will visit horrendous judgment upon men and women such as the Hitlers, Stalins, and Maos et al who committed heinous, grievous sin.

The awesome (or awful) truth is, you have been made aware of God's revelation to mankind. How will you respond, remembering that you will be held accountable for the revelation that has now been given you?
55 posted on 10/29/2016 4:39:17 PM PDT by righttackle44 (Take scalps. Leave the bodies as a warning.)
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To: LouieFisk

Doesn’t require much thinking: what did they know about The Lord?

Did they know and believe His promises, as Abraham did? Or at least the promises that had been revealed thus far? Were they those described by Hebrews 1? Or were they those Hebrews 11 speaks of, cumulating in 11:39-40?

But for those who had none of that, who had been denied it because their forefathers had turned aside to reverence idols and to give ear to demons and to fantasies opposing the knowledge of YHVH, I would suggest that we remember Acts 14:15-17, which was spoken to Gentiles, and also to Romans 2:14.

All of this may situationally apply to those before He was revealed, had come in the flesh, suffered and died, risen, and having risen ascended and having ascended sat down at the right hand of majesty and is also Him who will return.

And perchance we might include those to whom word had not yet come.

But now where in the world hasn’t His name been proclaimed or where hasn’t His name been known? Maybe only the Sentinelese people?


59 posted on 10/29/2016 4:41:04 PM PDT by Rurudyne (Standup Philosopher)
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To: LouieFisk; ifinnegan
I’ll play the “Devil’s Advocate” (heh) here and ask what about the millions that lived and died before Christ was even born or who otherwise never had the opportunity to reject Jesus?

I agree with ifinnegan's post #9, but I'd also add the additional two comments:

1) God is the Creator. HE can do whatever HE pleases with HIS creation, and it will be good and right. By definition.
We are all sinners deserving of damnation. There is none righteous, no not one. God 'owes' none of us Salvation. If HE chooses to save anyone - that HIS simply due to HIS Grace. Guilty people have no basis to complain.

2) They may not have had the clear message of the Gospels, and New Testament, but we don't know what others really knew, or know. Our first parents heard the Gospel message: 'A seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent', and they received the message that their works would not provide a 'covering' for their nakedness - only a blood sacrifice provided by God. Apparently they passed that message along to their children. Abel at least understood - and provided a blood sacrifice in faith.

We can only speak about ourselves. We have the Good News spelled out - God's great gift of HIS Word telling us the way of Salvation.
It is pointless to make excuses for others as we have no excuse. Knowing the Truth, we are to trust, and believe, and flee to our only only Hope - our Lord Jesus Christ.

60 posted on 10/29/2016 4:41:30 PM PDT by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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To: LouieFisk

Ah obviously you have NEVER read... Peter says that while in the tomb those three days and three nights Christ went to those back to the days of Noah... Might surprise you to read Abraham is a Christian. And the ‘devil’ needs no more advocates there are plenty walking around.


73 posted on 10/29/2016 5:18:41 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Jesus said Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: LouieFisk
I’ll play the “Devil’s Advocate” (heh) here and ask what about the millions that lived and died before Christ was even born or who otherwise never had the opportunity to reject Jesus?

Or those who never heard of Him today? OT believers were saved by looking forward to Christ, which the OT sacrificial system pointed to, while those without the gospel light can be justly judged and condemned for rejecting the light they had, which in essence is rejecting Christ, "the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world," (John 1:9) for unbelievers can "which have not the law," can "do by nature [basic innate moral sense] the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves." (Romans 2:14)

God owes grace to no one, but they would not be condemned for what they could not know or do, but for what they did do, in rejecting light they had (and sentenced accordingly), which the lost do, "Because that, when they knew God [in basic revelation], they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." (Romans 1:21-22) "Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen." (Romans 1:25)

And "we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things." (Romans 2:2)

Is it possible that if the abased themselves as broken-hearted contrite sinners and called upon God while they still had that basic light? I think so, just as OT Jews were saved by looking forward to Christ. The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. (Psalms 34:18) But which is only possible under the rubric of Christ's atonement, and thru Him.

95 posted on 10/29/2016 7:27:29 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: LouieFisk

I think the answer is in the Book; too.


120 posted on 10/30/2016 11:12:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: LouieFisk

All the OT looked forward to God’s sacrifice through his son. Faith in God promise was saving faith.


147 posted on 10/31/2016 3:28:50 PM PDT by D Rider
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