Posted on 08/30/2016 8:04:03 AM PDT by Salvation
Moses Breaking the Tablets of the Law (1659) by Rembrandt
I had an interesting discussion with Matt Hadro on EWTN’s “Morning Glory” radio show about the rising number of “nones” in our country. When asked for their religious affiliation, “nones” do not identify themselves as atheists or agnostics, but rather check the “none” box. They tend to be dismissive of “organized” religion and generally believe that it is acceptable to construct a purely personal religious view and understanding of God.
Indeed, we live in times when many people make light of the fact that others do not believe in God or relegate their faith to a solely personal and largely irrelevant aspect of life. This attitude exists even among many Catholics who, though believers themselves, don’t seem to be overly concerned that others are not. What seems to be of greater concern to most believers—Catholics included—is that a person be “nice.” If a person is determined to be “nice,” little else seems to matter.
Frankly, all of us should be concerned by the rise of unbelief in our culture, whether it is atheism, agnosticism, “none-ism,” indifference, or the rampant secularism that relegates God to the margins. We should be concerned because unbelief on a wide scale (as is the case today) is not only unhealthy for a culture, it is dangerous to it.
This danger is fairly obvious when one considers that unbelievers (and most “under-believers” such as “nones”) think that they answer to no one. When one no longer acknowledges that God exists and sees everything, “reinvents” God, selects what he likes from what God has commanded, or doesn’t understand that he will ultimately have to answer to God for what he has or has not done, it is easy to ignore important aspects of the moral life.
Realizing that we will one day answer to God is an important reminder that we are not a law unto ourselves. The knowledge that we will not ultimately escape if we treat others with contempt, engage in serious injustice, live unchastely, or indulge greed, is an important curb on sin (or at least a call to repentance).
This observation does not mean that every unbeliever or “under-believer” lives a reprobate life. There are atheists who live exemplary lives, who exhibit natural virtues, whether they do so because it is to their benefit or simply because they have some ethical sense that comports with the right reason.
But, other things being equal, having large numbers of unbelievers who do not think that they are ultimately accountable for what they do or fail to do is never healthy to good order, morality, or virtue.
Further, when belief is lost by many, so is a common moral reference point. The Judeo-Christian moral view formed the basis for modern law, justice, constitutional rights, and ethics. While sectarian differences obviously existed in the country for 200 years before this rise of unbelief, there was basic agreement on the essential moral issues, based on a biblical worldview. The rise of unbelief has caused this moral consensus to break down. In its place there has arisen a tyranny of relativism, in which numbers matter more than reason. The one who wins is the one with the loudest megaphone, the most power, and the greatest influence.
This, too, is dangerous to a culture. Without a shared cultus, there can be no real culture. The word cultus refers to a reference point (God and His revelation) that is above and outside a culture, that is bigger and more lasting. Without that shared cultus, that devotion to someone higher, there can be no culture.
Today, when we cannot agree on what makes a marriage, or even on something as obvious as whether one is male or female, the tyranny is starting to resemble anarchy and nihilism. No culture can withstand such a basic undermining. Problems of this sort are civilization killers.
Thus, belief is not only important—it is critical. We cannot go on relegating this matter to the realm of the purely personal and largely irrelevant. Being “nice” is not enough. We must be accountable to God and see Him as authoritative in our life. If we are to survive we must do this, both individually and collectively.
The First Commandment says, I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me (Exodus 20:2). This is not some egocentric God, demanding worship and that He have no rivals. This is our loving Father, who knows what unbelief does to us. When we reject Him and/or turn to other gods, we are harmed immeasurably. We lose our way and inherit a lawless and confused world, in which the tyranny of relativism holds sway and no one thinks or acts as if he will one day answer for what he has and has not done.
Do not make light of the rampant unbelief in our world today. It is far more serious than most imagine. God commands the most serious things for our own well-being. The First Commandment is that we believe and that we call others to do the same. There is a reason that it is commandment number one!
Its an interesting discussion and we all think about it from time to time.
Still, hell or extinction or eternal separation, however you envision it, its not a very happy outcome. It is the end of a life that has missed the point and missed the boat.
Love God. As you come to know him you can’t help but love him. Pursue him. Walk with him. Now, not later, eternity starts now.
If we get so far as to need to worry if the lake of fire is eternal or finite or literal or symbolic we’ve already missed it. :)
So Jesus made up the torment part?
“This ‘improved’ understanding is the work of Satan.”
That is a strong claim. Do you think the “improved” understanding of Luther is the work of Satan?
Hell is Law, not Gospel.
Fear God? Prov 9:10.
And we are to fear Him that can kill both body and soul in Gehenna.
So when God had the scriptures written, He was too stupid to account for sense at a human level. Couldn’t just be saying what happens? You have to bend the Words of God to your understanding instead of your understanding to the Word of God.
EVERLASTING must mean SOMETHING.
Thing is, there are many places in the bible where it is translated to English phrases such as “everlasting” eternal, forever and ever, and such, when the event was only for a predefined time, and then often a very short time.
Go here:http://rethinkinghell.com/explore/
click on the “scriptures” tab. You can then click on the Traditionalism, Conditionalism and Universalism tabs to see a list of “proof texts” for each one. You can then click on each proof text for the text, an explanation and sometimes a refutation.
This is not like the “pre- vs post-trib” type arguments. This stuff is pretty well discussed in the bible.
The core problem is what the ECT message does to God’s message. As one person used as an analogy:
Imagine you leave your kids with a babysitter and when you come home you find them put to bed, and the next morning you find that the babysitter, to get them to go to bed, told them that if they were not in bed by the time you got home, that you were going to torture them in the basement for a week.
Would that be a good thing? How would you feel about that babysitter?
Bookmark!
I am not surprised. For one who minimizes the consequence and price for sin what else could be expected?
Have you any proof of that understanding to be unbiblical? Catholics may, but I don't.
So Jesus made up the torment part? What part is that?
Rich man's torment in the parable. Not surprising you missed it, doesn't fit the narrative you are pushing.
The word behind destroy (appolumi) does not convey the notion of extinction but of great loss or ruin. Paul uses the same term in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, where he speaks of “eternal destruction”-a phrase that would not make sense if “destruction” meant annihilation, which by definition cannot be eternal. That which is annihilated ceases to exist.
https://www.gty.org/resources/print/bible-qna/BQ050212
What the Bible says about Hell
Whole counsel of God, try it. Better outcomes, biblical outcomes, not some new age feel good 'nicer' version. Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Sins wage is always paid, and always merited, eternal life is always a gift.
I am not surprised. For one who minimizes the consequence and price for sin what else could be expected?
Rich man’s torment in the parable. Not surprising you missed it, doesn’t fit the narrative you are pushing.
I was hoping to have a two sided discussion about this.
I remember when I tried to bring this up at my Baptist church here. One of the elders tried to argue with me, and when I answered his one or two arguments, his face got beet red and he held up his KJV and shook it and said, “I BELIEVE THE WORD OF GOD!”, to which I said, “So do I. Where we differ is our interpretation.” He looked like he was going to physically explode.
It was sad. I was just trying to have an adult conversation and he could not leave his dogma. The dogmatic ignorance was simply shocking to me at the time. It was like arguing the past of hillary with an ardent Hillary supporter. There was no reason there. Just blind belief. It was what he was taught since sunday school and he REFUSED to even listen to something - even when the bible was used to support it - if it disagreed with what he had been taught as a child and never studied with an adult mind.
There is a lot of that here in the bible belt. There are people that have been going to church for 70-80 years “religiously” that can’t tell you the difference between the OT and NT. They believe what they were taught as children by equally ignorant pastors, and that’s that.
The bible is an exciting book with great knowledge and history. The more I’m exposed to it, the more exciting its message. And the greater my understanding of its nuances. Little things like “weeping and gnashing of teeth” means great sorrow and great anger.
I wish you good fortune in your journey go ever growing biblical wisdom. Seriously.
https://bible.org/article/what-bible-says-about-hell
Have you read this:
http://rethinkinghell.com/explore/
Go to the scriptures tab and select each of the tabs below it - one each for Traditionalism, Conditionalism, and Universalism.
Then click on each scripture notation to get the scripture and a commentary. Note that some do not yet have a commentary (it is a work in progress).
I understand your point. I hope you understand mine.
NIV 2 Corinthians 1:13-14
13. For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that,
14. as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Yes. And I sincerely appreciate your methodology here. I believe you and I could have a fruitful discussion on bible topics on which we may disagree.
It’s interesting. People say minds are no5 changed, yet mine is often, once new and compelling information presents itself. Heck, that is what caused me to switch from ECT to CI in the first place.
Exactly!
Law and Gospel, rightly dividing the Word of God.
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