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Martin Luther was a ‘teacher of the faith’, say [Catholic] German bishops
Catholic Herald ^ | August 12, 2016 | Jonathan Luxmoore

Posted on 08/12/2016 3:59:59 PM PDT by ebb tide

Germany’s Catholic bishops have praised Martin Luther as a “Gospel witness and teacher of the faith” and called for closer ties with Protestants.

In a 206-page report, “The Reformation in Ecumenical Perspective”, Bishop Gerhard Feige of Magdeburg, chairman of the German bishops’ ecumenical commission, said the “history of the Reformation has encountered a changeable reception in the Catholic Church, where its events and protagonists were long seen in a negative, derogatory light”.

“While the wounds are still felt to the present day, it is gratifying that Catholic theology has succeeded, in the meantime, in soberly reconsidering the events of the 16th century,” he said in the report, published this week by Germany’s Bonn-based bishops’ conference.

Bishop Feige said the “history and consequences” of the Reformation would be debated during its upcoming 500th anniversary, but added that there was consensus that previous mutual condemnations were invalid.

“Memories of the Reformation and the subsequent separation of Western Christianity are not free from pain,” Bishop Feige said. “But through lengthy ecumenical dialogue, the theological differences rooted in the period have been re-evaluated – as is documented in the work presented by our ecumenical commission.”

Martin Lazar, the Magdeburg diocesan spokesman, told Catholic News Service on Wednesday that the Reformation still caused tensions in Germany, especially “in religiously separated families.”

The bishops’ report said the “Catholic Church may recognise today what was important in the Reformation – namely, that Sacred Scripture is the centre and standard for all Christian life.

“Connected with this is Martin Luther’s fundamental insight that God’s self-revelation in Jesus Christ for the salvation of the people is proclaimed in the Gospel – that Jesus Christ is the centre of Scripture and the only mediator.”

The Reformation is traditionally dated from the October 1517 publication of Luther’s 95 Theses, questioning the sale of indulgences and the Gospel foundations of papal authority.

Luther was excommunicated by Pope Leo X in January 1521 and outlawed by Holy Roman Emperor Charles V.

The German bishops describe Luther as “a religious pathfinder, Gospel witness and teacher of the faith,” whose “concern for renewal in repentance and conversion” had not received an “adequate hearing” in Rome.

They said the reformer’s work still posed a “theological and spiritual challenge” and had “ecclesial and political implications for understanding the Church and the Magisterium.”

The report said a joint Catholic-Lutheran statement in 1980 commemorating the Augsburg Confession, which set out the new Lutheran faith, had been crucial in bringing churches closer, while another ecumenical statement in 1983, on the 500th anniversary of Luther’s birth, had started an “intensive engagement” with the reformer’s work.

A historic 1999 joint declaration on the doctrine of justification was a “milestone in ecumenical dialogue,” the report said, by recognising that remaining differences should “no longer have a church-dividing effect.”

The bishops’ report includes June 2015 conciliatory letters between the German bishops’ conference president, Cardinal Reinhard Marx, and Lutheran Bishop Heinrich Strohm, president of the Evangelical Church of Germany, outlining plans for a 2017 ecumenical pilgrimage to the Holy Land and a Lent service devoted to “healing memories.”

In an interview with CNS, the ecumenical commission’s deputy chairman, Bishop Heinz Algermissen of Fulda, said Catholic-Lutheran ties had improved since the Second Vatican Council, but that churches must work for “visible unity, not just reconciled diversity.”

“This means not only praying together, but meeting the challenge of speaking with one voice as Christians when we are all challenged by aggressive atheism and secularism, as well as by [radicalised] Islam. Otherwise we will lose more and more ground,” he said.

“In commemorating the Reformation, we cannot just see it as a jubilee, but should also admit our guilt for past errors and repent on both sides for the past 500 years,” he added.

Catholics make up 29 per cent of Germany’s 82 million inhabitants, with the Evangelical Church of Germany accounting for 27 per cent, although all denominations have faced declining membership.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: ecumania; francischurch; heresy; luther
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To: Wyrd bið ful aræd
Understanding that you’re just trying to get under people’s skin, care to explain how Luther could have “recovered” something that wasn’t lost in the first place?

He didn't do it alone. He had help...



Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]

Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.

Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy

Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy

Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.[2]

Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.[3]

Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony[4]

Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bad_Popes

81 posted on 08/13/2016 4:56:01 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Wyrd bið ful aræd
I think it’s obvious that you’ve seriously misunderstood Matthew 18:3.

In what way???




But you haven’t explained how...

Perhaps first; you should explain how MT 18:3 is SERIOUSLY misunderstood.

82 posted on 08/13/2016 4:57:49 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: raygunfan
AAAH the cafeteria protestants....giddy over luther on this subject, but very quiet on his words on mary as ever virgin, and the eucharist as the literal body and blood of christ, etc.....


Yeah...

Sure...

83 posted on 08/13/2016 4:58:54 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: rwa265
One of the many things I have learned through participating in the forum is how much of an influence Augustine had on Luther.

He hasn't had much 'influence' on Modern Catholics!!


As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18

Augustine, sermon:

"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer.John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327

Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.

Augustine, sermon:

For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)

Augustine, sermon:

And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289

Augustine, sermon:

Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95

Augustine, sermon:

...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193

Augustine, Psalm LXI:

Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)

• Augustine, in “Retractions,”

In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.

 

84 posted on 08/13/2016 5:01:09 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: raygunfan
there can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven.

SURE there can!

She is DEAD; and in her grave.


Now; if you have any EVIDENCE to disprove this claim; I'm sure the lurkers will be oh so glad to read it.

85 posted on 08/13/2016 5:02:40 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: raygunfan
ok, so just as i said, you pick and choose what to believe.....

And Rome picks and chooses what to ADD to it's practices.

86 posted on 08/13/2016 5:04:17 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: xone

but very quiet on his words on mary as ever virgin

That isn’t Lutheran doctrine.


They are very quiet on his words. The belief is not addressed in the Augsburg Confession or the Large Confession. It is mentioned in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod’s Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord in Part VIII, The Person of Christ.

24] On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blesses Virgin, bore not a mere man, but, as the angel [Gabriel] testifies, such a man as is truly the Son of the most high God, who showed His divine majesty even in His mother’s womb, inasmuch as He was born of a virgin, with her virginity inviolate. Therefore she is truly the mother of God, and nevertheless remained a virgin.

file:///C:/Users/Rich/Downloads/Solid%20Declaration%20(1).pdf


87 posted on 08/13/2016 5:05:28 AM PDT by rwa265
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To: ebb tide
So now you’re extrapolating your “faith” to that which scripture doesn’t say?

Do you REALLY want to go here?

88 posted on 08/13/2016 5:05:42 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ebb tide
Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation.

How smugly arrogant!


"One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved, in which the priest himself is the sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the species of bread and wine; the bread (changed) into His body by the divine power of transubstantiation, and the wine into the blood, so that to accomplish the mystery of unity we ourselves receive from His (nature) what He Himself received from ours."

--Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215)

 

89 posted on 08/13/2016 5:07:51 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ebb tide; Invincibly Ignorant
Now that you’ve been informed, you can no longer claim invincible ignorance as an excuse.

Should we have pinged him?

90 posted on 08/13/2016 5:08:41 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ebb tide; Mark17
I wear a brown scapular.

So does Mel Gibson.



Blessed Assurance; Jesus is mine...

91 posted on 08/13/2016 5:11:05 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Mark of the Deadly Brow Scapular Placemarker.

More deadly than the Brown Recluse spider, which is only able to kill the body and not the soul.

“Little children, keep yourself from idols.” - Apostle John


92 posted on 08/13/2016 5:11:30 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: ealgeone

Amulets and mojo bones.


93 posted on 08/13/2016 5:11:36 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ebb tide
I wear a brown scapular.

There is only one location on OUR magic outfit that is brown.

94 posted on 08/13/2016 5:13:07 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Arrian

But the EO has to come back first; Right??


95 posted on 08/13/2016 5:14:02 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ealgeone
I notice you cannot provide a scriptural reference to justify the scapular.

DAMMIT!!! Mary said so!!


96 posted on 08/13/2016 5:14:56 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
"In what way???"

Think harder. You'll get it, I imagine.

97 posted on 08/13/2016 5:15:00 AM PDT by Wyrd bið ful aræd (Police Lives Matter)
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To: ebb tide
I notice that you reject, or at least ignore John 20:23.

I notice that you reject, or at least ignore John 6:28-29

98 posted on 08/13/2016 5:15:46 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ebb tide
I have no problem in believing things outside the Bible...

Of COURSE not!

You are CATHOLIC!!



Ambrose: …constantly pray ‘Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since thou hast its KEYS. Anselm: It suffices, O Lady, that thou willest it, and our SALVATION is certain.

Antoninus: …souls protected by Mary, and on which she casts her eyes, are NECESSARILY JUSTIFIED AND SAVED. 

Athanasius: …And, thou, O Lady, wast filled with grace, that thou mightiest be the way of our SALVATION and the means of ascent to the heavenly Kingdom.

Bernadine: …all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases. O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can ONLY come through thy hands, OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON THEE.
(Leo XIII: Adiutricem populi, September 5, 1895) — [p. 19, no. 44]

Blosius: To the, O Lady, are committed the KEYS and the treasures of the kingdom of Heaven.

Bonaventure: …the gates of heaven will open to all who confide in the protection of Mary. Blessed are they who know thee, O Mother of God, for the knowledge of THEE is the high road to everlasting life, and the publication of thy virtues is the way of ETERNAL SALVATION . Give ear, O ye nations; and all you who desire heaven , serve, honor Mary, and certainly you will find ETERNAL LIFE.

She says, "He that shall find Me shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord.   "Qui me invenerit, inveniet vitam, et hauriet salutem a Domino."

Listen," exclaims St. Bonaventure on these words, "listen, all you who desire the kingdom of God: honor the most Blessed Virgin Mary, and you will find life and eternal salvation."  "Audite qui ingredi cupitis regnum Dei: Virginem Mariam honorate, et invenietis vitam et salutem perpetuam."-psalt. B.V.ps.48.

 

Ephem: …devotion to the divine Mother…is the unlocking of the heavenly Jerusalem.

Fulgetius: …by Mary God descended from Heaven into the world, that by HER man might ascend from earth to Heaven. Guerric: …he who serves Mary and for whom she intercedes, is as CERTAIN of heaven as if he were already there…and those who DO NOT serve Mary will NOT BE SAVED.

Richard of Laurence: Mary, in fine, is the mistress of heaven; for there she commands as she wills, and ADMITS whom she wills.

 

“The Catholic Church has always and with justice put all her hope and trust in the Mother of God.”

(Leo XIII: Encyclical, Supreme Apostolatus, September 1, 1883.) — [p. 32, no. 104]



“... Yet our manner of praying to the Blessed Virgin has something in common with our worship of God so that the Church even addressed to her the words with which we pray to God: ‘Have mercy on sinners.’”

(Leo XIII: Encyclical, Augustissimae, September 12, 1897.) [p. 68; no. 302]

"Only She Can Help You"
by Father Nicholas Gruner, S.T.L., S.T.D. (Cand.)
In this letter introducing The Fatima Crusader Issue 38, Father Gruner discusses the growing lies and deception about Russia's errors and the consecration of that nation. He also reminds us that, while it is urgent that we be informed about and fight for Our Lady's cause, we must ask for Her help and intercession.

In the Fatima sanctuary, at the exact spot where Our Lady appeared, Father Gruner pays homage to Her while touching the original statue of Fatima. Father Gruner was recently graced with this rare opportunity since normally this sacred image is always protected by a glass covering which completely surrounds it all day long.

Mary Leads Her Servants to Heaven
by St. Alphonsus de Liguori
In this article taken from The Glories of Mary, Saint Alphonsus explains that there are countless souls in Heaven who are there now only because Mary, by Her powerful intercession, led them there. If a soul persists in true devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, She will certainly lead that soul to Heaven.

 



The Rosary
by Father Stefano Manelli, S.T.D.
It is greatly important that Our Lady insisted on the Rosary. When at Fatima She spoke of the salvation of sinners, of the ruin of souls in hell, of wars and peace, and of the future of our age. Our Lady indicated and recommended the Rosary as the prayer that saves, that brings peace, that preserves the faith.

Hail Mary, Full of Grace
by Father Stefano Manelli, S.T.D.
It is truly a treasure to have a strong devotion to Our Lady, for it is She who unites us to Jesus and brings us to Heaven, as this article explains.

Mary, Our Life, Our Sweetness, Our Hope
by St. Alphonsus de Liguori
St. Alphonsus de Liguori explains how Mary is our life, how She is our sweetness, and how She is our hope.

The historical record of the worship of Mary accumulated by St. Alphonsus de Liguori who wrote “The Glories of Mary” in the year 1745, which has been since translated into English and printed again and again and again with the full affirmation and imprimatur of the official Roman Catholic Church.  In this book there is the sum of all the glories of Mary which has been vouchsafe to the Roman Catholic Church and the Church itself calls upon all its constituents to give Mary that honor she is due.  She is identified as Mary, our Queen; Mary, our mother; Mary, our life; Mary, our sweetness; Mary, our hope; Mary, our help; Mary, our Mediatress; Mary, our advocate; Mary, our guardian; and Mary, our salvation.  It is said that Mary delivers us from hell, Mary delivers us from purgatory, and Mary leads us to heaven.  And it should be said that de Liguori, who collected all the Marion dogma and devotion, was himself one of the most celebrated and revered authorities in the Roman Catholic Church.  De Liguori was himself a cardinal in life, and a saint in death.

 

Jesus said "Without Me you can do nothing". In this crisis which looms ahead of us, Our Lady has told us that we need Her help, Her intercession. We must ask for Her help with the Rosary and the Scapular.

At Fatima, Our Lady told us very plainly that "Only I can help you". Today more than ever is this so true.

Pray the Rosary and sacrifice yourself for Our Lady.

I urge you to also make some sacrifices as Our Lady of Fatima asked us. For those who are able, do some fasting. If you can, abstain from meat by eating meat only during one meal a day. Try to do this for two days, even ten days or 30 days. Of course we should abstain totally from meat every Friday.

 

 Jesus and Mary — Our Hope

It is so urgent that we reach as many souls as possible before it is too late. Let us be of good cheer and remember the words of Jesus to each of us, "It's never too late to have recourse to Jesus and Mary." That is why it is so important to reach the many millions of souls who do not know this, and who do not know the grave dangers lying in wait for their souls.

No, we must never lose hope. Mary is our hope. She can obtain for us what we cannot by ourselves. Read what St. Alphonsus has to say regarding confidence in Our Lady's intercession in "Mary Leads Her Servants to Heaven". Father Manelli also reminds us of the importance of devotion to Our Lady. (See "Hail Mary, Full of Grace"). Our Blessed Mother tells us to turn to Her in confidence. She tells us repeatedly to ask Her intercession through the frequent fervent praying of the Rosary. (See "The Rosary"). She tells us we must pray the Rosary every day. She wants us to pray it many times a day.

 

http://fatima.org/crusader/cr38/cr38pg2.asp



"Blessed is he whose interior offers the Blessed Virgin Mary a place of repose." Devotion towards the Blessed Virgin remains in all who are the inheritance of Our Lord; that is to say, in all who will praise Him eternally in Heaven.

O, how many blessed souls are now in Heaven who would never have been there had not Mary, by Her powerful intercession, led them thither. I made that in the heavens there should rise light that never faileth. Cardinal Hugo, in his commentary on the above text of Ecclesiasticus, says in the name of Mary, "I have caused as many saints in Heaven through Her intercession, who would never have been there but through Her ."

...in the words of St. Ambrose, "Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since Thou hast its keys." "Aperi nobis, O Virgo coelum, cujus claves habes." Nay more, the Church says, that "Thou art its gate." 

St. Antoninus tells us "that this divine Mother has already, by Her assistance and prayers, obtained Heaven for us, provided we put no obstacle in the way."23 Hence, says Abbot Guerric, "he who serves Mary, and for whom She intercedes, is as certain of Heaven as if he was already there."24 St. John Damascene also says, "that to serve Mary and be Her courtier is the greatest honor we can possibly possess; for to serve the Queen of Heaven is already to reign there, and live under Her commands is more than to govern."25 On the other hand, he adds, "that those who do not serve Mary will not be saved; for those who are deprived of the help of this great Mother are also deprived of that of Her Son and of the whole court of heaven."26

 23.  "Coeleste nobis regnum, suo interventu auxiliis, et precibus, impetravit."—Paciucch. Sup. Salve Reg. exc. I.
 24. "Qui Virgini famulatur, ita securus est de paradiso, ac si esset in paradiso."
 25. "Summus honor, servire Mariæ, et de ejus esse familia; etenim ei servire, regnare est; et ejus agi frænis, summa libertas."
 26. "Gens quæ non servierit illi, peribit; gentes destitutæ tantæ Matris auxilio, destituuntur auxilio Filii et totius curi’‘ coelestis."— De Laud. B. M. I. 4.

Cardinal Hugo http://fatima.org/crusader/cr38/cr38pg3.asp 

99 posted on 08/13/2016 5:18:52 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ebb tide

Ignoring a red herring is NOT dodging it.


100 posted on 08/13/2016 5:20:06 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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