Posted on 08/08/2016 2:14:55 PM PDT by NYer
U.S. Olympian Katie Ledecky is the world record holder in the 400-, 800- and 1500-meter freestyles, and the American record holder in the 500-, 1000- and 1650-yard freestyles.
In the Olympics in Rio de Janeiro, she will compete in the 200-, 400-, and 800-meter freestyle. She has won Gold medals in the 2012 London Olympics and again in the 2016 Rio Olympics.
But before every race Ledecky, a faithful Catholic, offers a Hail Mary. “I do say a prayer – or two – before any race. The Hail Mary is a beautiful prayer and I find that it calms me.” she said.
In an interview with the Catholic Standard Ledecky said “My Catholic faith is very important to me. It always has been and it always will be. It is part of who I am and I feel comfortable practicing my faith. It helps me put things in perspective.”
Paul treats this rather extensively in Romans 6, 7, and 8, as well as 1 Corinthians (7:21; 10:29); 2 Corinthians 3:17; Galatians 2:4; Galatians 4:7; Galatians 4:20; Galatians 5; and then there’s James 1:25; James 2:12; 1 Peter 2:16.
The upshot is, the Church is given the "power to bind and loose," the "keys" (which symbolize the full authority of the king's appointed official, as it made very clear in Isaiah 22:22 and Rev 3:7.) As individual Christians, we have huge liberty to honor God and the persons, places, and things associated with God, on many occasions and in many ways not commanded in a sacred text.
I was reminded of this forcefully a few weeks ago, when I attended the funeral of a veteran over here at the VA who had no family to attend the services: so a group of us VA volunteers attended out of respect. How are these things strictly "Scriptural":
•Holding church burial services at all (find me that in the Bible)
•Putting up tombstones
•Wearing a uniform; being buried in a uniform; having a flag on your casket. •Putting images of crosses, or angels, or flowers, or flags, or any other element of visual or sculptural art at cemeteries
•Putting wreaths at a monument to the dead (e.g. the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier)
•Elaborate ceremonies involving the National Flag for fallen members of the Armed Forces
Moving beyond the theme of non-Biblically-mandated funeral customs, which all of us observe,I'll go on to other examples which show that we ALL do things year-in and year-out not mandated in Scriptures:
•calling a person by a title like "Reverend" or "Doctor" or "Pastor"
•making statues and monuments of people we admire (e.g. George Washington), whose life-scenes and battle-scenes become places of public pilgrimage
•pictures of Jesus Christ, as well as God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, in illustrated Bibles and religious books. Who authorized these illustrations??
•parades and pageants and processions or all sorts
•brides with wedding rings,
•wearing white, carrying bouquets and
•Wedding ceremonies themselves, which were not commanded, commended, not even mentioned in Scripture.
We are at liberty to do all these things, because everything in life, including everything "religious", doesn't have to be authorized by a "verse".
P.S. I appreciate your peaceable tone, and even more, your peaceable soul. It makes these FR “conversations” so much more worthwhile.
God bless you, too.
jafojeffsurf, sorry, I got mixed up and I'd sent that you you and not to Elsie.
Coffee...coffee...coffee..
The Catechism of the Catholic Church references many such elements of Apostolic belief, observance and practice. You'll need to use their search function. Try keyword TRADITION.
Let me respectfully re-direct your attention to my analogy about the family's Thanksgiving Dinner traditions. A lot of it is not in what we "write." A lot of it is in what we "do."
You may need to spend more time in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century Christians ("Apostolic" or "Ante-Nicene" Fathers) to perceive what they did and we still do. Justin Martyr and the Didache are good places to begin. Plus Ignatius of Antioch (second bishop of Antioch, succeeded Peter) of course; and Polycarp, too, his friend, who was, with him, as disciple of St John.
Certainly a beautiful summary of Christianity, as expressed in the Scriptures!
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, God’s only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic and apostolic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.
1. Can you point to a phrase or belief in the Apostle's Creed that doesn't appear in Scripture, but depends on tradition?
2. Also, since this was not written during the time of the Apostles, we know it is not what Paul referred to in the passages about tradition. What specific traditions did Paul refer to?
2. "the holy catholic and apostolic Church, the communion of saints, ..."
3, St Paul did not list (in writing) what he meant by the traditions he referred to, and yet he enjoined his disciples to cling to them and observe them. The rather clear inference is that it is not only writings which have authority, but primarily the preacher's words and example. What he says (oral preaching, teaching, advising, praying, conversing and counseling) and what he does. Writings followed later; sometimes decades later, sometimes generations.
How would we know what that Oral Tradition consisted of? By the actual practice of the oldest churches founded by the apostles and their first-generation disciples, across three continents, before ca. 300 AD:
Roman Enpire (Eastern): Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Asia Minor, Tiberias; Caesarea; Cyprus; Crete; Rhoades, Damascus, Greece, Libya
Roman Empire (Western): Rome; Italy outside Rome (Milan, Naples, Sicily, Syracuse); Carthage; Gaul (Marseilles, Lyon, Tours); Malta; parts of Spain (Cordova, Seville, Toledo)
Outside the Roman Empire: Ethiopia; Armenia (became a Christian kingdom in 300 AD, before Rome's Edict of Toleration); Georgia and the Caucasus region; Mesopotamia and Western Syria; Persia and Central Asia; Arabia (Red Sea coastal); Ethiopia.
Evangleized by the original Apostles and their disciples on three continents.
They had many language, cultural, and political differences. Here's what they had in common: they are ALL:
Some of the externals may look different, but the core is completely shared: e.g. the same 27 books of the New Testament; but in their various languages: Koine Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, Old Slavonic, Geez, etc. and prayed, recited, chanted, proclaimed according to their cultural ways.
There's this remarkable continuity even though today some of them are now associated with the Roman Catholic Church; some with the Eastern Orthodox; some with the "Oriental" Orthodox (non-Chalcedonian) and other "Churches of the East." (These, BTW, founded in Apostolic times and severely conservative of their ancient traditions, are often stubborn survivors of a millennium+ of oppression by Islam, and have been almost wiped out by ISIS.)
Traditional practices faithfully observed across the continents, across the centuries, despite dislocations, displacements, and disruptions --- Biblical, Creedal, liturgical, hierarchical, sacramental, Eucharistic, praying always within the Communion of Saints including those on earth, in a state of Purgation, and in Heaven---
They didn't invent these basics. They learned them from their founders. This is what we mean by Apostolic Tradition.
He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Jesus) Matthew 15:3
Thanks for responding. Here are some comments about your statements.
1. Scripture itself depends on Tradition (which means (handing on.) Specifically, Scripture was sourced from Oral Tradition.
Scripture was God-breathed by the Holy Spirit, who moved men to write. That is what God says. Tradition informed the discussions, but did not decide the canon.
2. "the holy catholic and apostolic Church, the communion of saints, ..."
Scripture details the fellowship of saints in the Body of Christ. Admittedly, the RCC later expanded it's meaning to include talking with dead people and pretending they can hear.
3, St Paul did not list (in writing) what he meant by the traditions he referred to, and yet he enjoined his disciples to cling to them and observe them. The rather clear inference is that it is not only writings which have authority, but primarily the preacher's words and example. What he says (oral preaching, teaching, advising, praying, conversing and counseling) and what he does. Writings followed later; sometimes decades later, sometimes generations.
And today, we have not heard his teaching, advising, praying, conversing, etc. In the interim period, it served a purpose. God provided inspired Scripture that includes all a Christians needs for salvation and maturity. Paul did not say tradition was inspired or equal to Scripture.
How would we know what that Oral Tradition consisted of? By the actual practice of the oldest churches founded by the apostles and their first-generation disciples, across three continents, before ca. 300 AD:
Which contains a very large presupposition - that that is happening now, is exactly what happened then
"They had many language, cultural, and political differences. Here's what they had in common:"
AFTER 100 AD. No evidence that this occured during the lifetime of the Apostles.
praying always within the Communion of Saints including those on earth, in a state of Purgation, and in Heaven---
Except NEVER before 100 AD, during the lifetime of the Apostles.
They didn't invent these basics.
Another presupposition. Pagans brought many traditions into the Church, as written in the Catholic Encyclopedia. These are now called Apostolic Tradition, but were foreign to Paul.
They learned them from their founders.
Another presupposition without evidence.
This is what we mean by Apostolic Tradition.
I get that it means, "whatever non-Apostlic teachings and accretions we add throughout the millennia. Apostolic Tradition is the blank check of our faith. We get together and vote on what is currently accepted and it is now existing from the beginning - without proof that it occurred during the lives of the Apostles."
They are in Christ but they are dead hence their being called "the Dead in Christ". Or you can call them asleep. But never once does the Holy Spirit give an example of a living saint speaking through prayer to a dead saint in some desperate need for intercession. For examples of that we must look.....elsewhere.
The "good work" of praying to saints or praying to Mary or believing in the immaculate conception are not mentioned in the scripture. But the scripture prepares one for EVERY GOOD WORK, therefore the extra biblical things are not good works.
Only from scriptures can teaching for good works flow. Only Scripture!
Paul warns against false traditions (e.g. Gnosticism) and yet insists upon true Tradition, an insistence I do not see in your posts:
Corinthians 11:2
I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.
2 Thessalonians 3:6
We instruct you, brothers, in the name of [our] Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us.
Those who reject the core elements believed and practiced by the earliest churches ( the Canon of Scripture, the liturgy, the sacramentality, the devotion to the Communion of Saints, the profound respect for Mary within that Communion of Saints, the attention to an unbroken chain of Apostolic Succession) --- have only a fragmentary grasp of what was handed on to us by the Apostles.
Gotta agree with that --- with the exception of implication that it's ONLY Scripture that we need. Scripture itself never tells us it is "all" we need. Quite the contrary, Scripture --- which is permanently authoritative --- tells us the Church is the foundation of Truth. In fact, the Church is the foundation of Scripture, and not t'other way around.
The Bible tells me so.
**There you go: that’s the key distinction between “Sacred” Tradition and the illegitimate kind. “Sacred” tradition does not involve breaking the commandments of God.***
Except for eating blood, calling no man father, forbidding priests to marry, etc.
As tersely as I can:
(Join me in a cold beer?)
Some day, the scales will be lifted from his eyes, and we will have another convert to the One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
“with the exception of implication that it’s ONLY Scripture that we need. Scripture itself never tells us it is “all” we need.
Scripture says it contains everything we need for salvation and maturity. There is no tradition needed for either.
“Quite the contrary, Scripture -— which is permanently authoritative -— tells us the Church is the foundation of Truth.”
Meaning that the Church should uphold truth.
“In fact, the Church is the foundation of Scripture, and not t’other way around.”
Even that is distorted.
The Church should be a foundation to uphold truth and a lamp stand to shine the truth.
No Worries...
God Bless
Yes.
I've no interest in falling into rabbit holes or chasing red herrings.
The subject is how Mary OBTAINED her super powers: ones that ONLY God should possess.
Obviously Scripture of the Bible is only as good, written word of God, as the Interpreting Authority wants it to be, when it contradicts the Organization's Traditions or stance it can be ignored or explained away. Which is Why Our Lord Left warning here to those who can see that an overpowering ruling organization needs to be judged by What has been Written.
The Bereans were called more noble for WHAT reason??
Is THIS what you took away from what I posted?
HMMMmmm...
I was ASSUMING that a Comparison was being made to the GENERIC statement "..she at least embraces her religion and gives thanks to those who guided her..."
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