Posted on 05/24/2016 6:49:46 AM PDT by Salvation
Many of you know that I write the Question and Answer column for Our Sunday Visitor. Given the celebration of Trinity Sunday this past Sunday, I thought I might reproduce here on the blog a question/answer regarding the Trinity. It is a fairly common question; perhaps you have it, too. Remember that my answers in the column are required to be brief.
We read in a recent Sunday Gospel (May 1, 2016) that Jesus says that the Father is greater than He (Jn 14:28). Since we are all taught that each Divine Person of the Blessed Trinity fully possesses the nature of God, equally to be adored and glorified, what did Jesus mean by such a statement?” – Dick Smith, Carrolton, TX.
Theologically, Jesus means that the Father is the eternal source in the Trinity. All three persons of the Trinity are co-eternal, co-equal, and equally divine. But the Father is the Principium Deitatis (the Source in the Deity).
Hence, Jesus proceeds from the Father from all eternity. He is eternally begotten of the Father. In effect, Jesus is saying, “I delight that the Father is the eternal principle or source of my being, even though I have no origin in time.”
Devotionally, Jesus is saying that He always does what pleases His Father. Jesus loves His Father; He’s crazy about Him. He is always talking about Him and pointing to Him. By calling the Father greater, He says (in effect), “I look to my Father for everything. I do what I see Him doing (Jn 5:19) and what I know pleases Him (Jn 5:30). His will and mine are one. What I will to do proceeds from Him. I do what I know accords with His will.”
So although the members of the Trinity are all equal in dignity, there are processions in the Trinity, such that the Father is the source, the Son eternally proceeds from Him (Jn 8:42), and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son as from one principal (Jn 15:26).
St Thomas speaks poetically of the Trinity as follows:
Genitori, Genitoque … Procedenti ab utroque … compar sit laudautio
(To the One Who Begets, and to the Begotton One, and to the One who proceeds from them both, be equal praise.)
The Athanasian Creed says the following regarding these processions:
The Father is made by none, neither created nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone, neither made nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son, not made, nor created, nor begotten, but he proceeds from them.
So although equal, processions do have an order. The Father is “greater” (as source), but is equal in dignity to Son and Holy Spirit.
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I’m waiting to hear it, too.
This is a completely false statement. You were asked in post 238. if you have a better response I would love to see it.
God the Father has Always existed
God the Son has always existed.
God the Holy Spirit has always existed.
None of them are created.
The Father is not the Son nor is He the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father nor is He the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father nor is He the Son.
They are three separate but Equal persons. They are three persons with one nature. This nature is fully Divine. This means that all three are omnipotent (all powerful) and omniscient (all knowing).
All three of them are infinite and eternal, not in the mathematical sense, but in the philosophical sense. They exist out side of both time and space. This is why we can say that they have no beginning or end. But that is only true from our finite transitory minds.
The Son proceeded from the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeded from both the Father and the Son. Once again just to be certain all of you understand: None of them are created.
JAKraig Asked about the ORIGIN of the Trinity. You can see that in post #11.
ealgeone gave the identity of the members of the Trinity.
It is the equivalent of someone asking: "How did baseball begin?" and receiving the roster of the New York Yankees as a reply.
It's only the height or arrogance and pride that would enable anyone to even begin to THINK that they could "explain" the origin of the Trinity.
Puny, finite, mortal minds cannot grasp the unsearchable, infinite, and immortal.
By pride the Devil fell. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
That Catholics think they can do it shows what spiritual danger they are in.
A very good explanation Verga, sadly like your post #116 I believe it may be wasted on the philosophically and theologically illiterate. Have a good Memorial day and thank you for your previous service to our country.
Hold that thought.....
Exactly
No clarification of that to which you were referring
Mind reading is not my strong suit
Oh good you have been paying attention
That post was almost completely in line with Biblical teachings
Now we are making progress
It must be time to get back to the TITLE of this thread: Why Does Jesus Call the Father Greater If We Teach That the Members of the Trinity Are Equal?
Does anyone notice just WHO is being questioned here?
How DARE He say something that would bring the TEACHINGS of the CHURCH into suspicion!!!
There you go again; besmirching the Blessed Mother that Rome has created!
Everyone KNOWS that she was BORN sinless, remained sinless and NEVER engaged in any kind of sexual act during her life!
Catholic_Wannabe_Dude(You prots are REALLY starting to get to me!!)
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To: Arthur McGowan
While I appreciate the discussion and the attempt to answer the question, it was not answered. Saying that The Son was neither created or made and then saying that he was begotten by The Father are mutually exclusive statements. If both Beings are eternal then how can one beget the other.
The concept of the Holy Trinity has been a controversy since it was codified in Nicea in 325AD. The major arguments were that Nicea said that Christ was God and that God was God, that Christ was not made but begotten of God The Father, that since Christ came from the Father He was also God. Then Nicea went further to explain that God and Christ are of one body or of the same substance, and further to say that God The Father and Christ the son were both eternal. I personally find these statements illogical. I don't see how Christ could be begotten AND be eternal, I believe the terms eternal and begotten are mutually exclusive. If a King has a son, his first son, he becomes king. He isn't born a king although he is born to become a king. He has the substance of being a king when he is born because he is begotten by a king. Christ and God The Father are not the same being. Christ prayed to His Father in the garden and asked that the bitter cup be removed but then decided to do His Fathers will. While Christ did the bidding of His Father and sacrificed Himself for us His Father also sacrificed His Son. All the above is not to say that I believe that Christ The Son of The Father was first begotten when He was born of Mary, I believe that He was with The Father from before time. What does before time mean? Good question but I believe it was at least before the creation of the earth. I also believe that all people were with God The Father before the creation of earth. I believe, again, doctrine according to Joe, that Christ when He was born of Mary received a physical body and was no longer a spirit. After His death on the cross He apeared to many several times going back and forth between Heaven and earth, and even stated that He was not a spirit, He ate and drank with the Apostles to prove He had a body. When He left the earth to ascend to Heaven for the last time recorded in the Holy Bible He was seen by about 500 people and the two angels explained to those who saw Him ascend that He would come back in the same way. To me that means He has a body like mine only perfected to be incorruptible as Paul explained. So who then is The Holy Ghost? Again the doctrine of Joe says that He is a personage of spirit, just like Christ was before being born of Mary. There is a difference though, Christ was the First Born of The Father while The Holy Ghost does the will of The Father and of The Son and testifies of Them both. The doctrine of Joe says that God The Father and God, Christ The son are not of the same substance in that they do not share the same “body” if you will but are of the same substance like my father and I are of the same substance. When I look in the mirror now in my old age I see my father looking back from the mirror at me. I look like him because I am of the same substance, not his substance but they are the same. How important is this argument? I don't think it very important. I think what is important is to realize that Jesus Christ willingly did the Will of His Father and came to earth, was perfect and therefore did not deserve to die or be punished for sin. I do not believe it was any easier for Him to be perfect than for me but He was AND He agreed to be punished in my place for my sins if I but acknowledge Him and try to follow Him. I am trying. Because Christ was perfect and deserves no punishment He can stand before The Father and offer Himself to take the punishment of my sin for me. He does not have to do this. He will not do this for everybody, not everybody will ask Him too, not everybody will try to follow Him. Christ says He will inherit EVERYTHING His Father Has. He also says that if we will follow Him, at least really try to follow Him that we will be joint heirs with Him AND be like Him. You can't inherit something you already have. At some point anyway Christ did not have all that The Father has but would inherit it, that alone tells me that Christ and God The Father are two individuals and that Christ anyway has progressed from one condition to another. 11 posted on 5/24/2016 10:52:58 AM by JAKraig (my religion is at least as good as yours)
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You absolutely sure?
Her many children might disagree. 😀😄😎
Remember just WHO you are talking to here:
Here is an alphabetical list of some of the more important terms and their meanings to a Mormon:
AARONIC PRIESTHOOD: This is called the lesser priesthood, and is usually held by young men starting at the age of 12 to the age of about 18. It is also held for a short time by men who have just become members.
AFTERLIFE: The Mormon afterlife is divided up into four levels. From the lowest to the highest they are: hell, and then three levels of heaven: the telestial, the terrestrial, and the place where God dwells, the celestial (also called the kingdom of God). The celestial is also divided, the highest level being "exaltation," or becoming a God.
APOSTLES: The Mormon Church claims to have the same organization as the primitive church that Jesus set up. They also have twelve apostles and sometimes use this as a proof of their divine appointment as the one true church. But they actually have fifteen or more most of the time. The general practice has been for a new president, who is also an apostle, to appoint counselors from the Quorum of the Twelve; then the openings left by the president and his counselors are filled, resulting in a total of fifteen.
CELESTIAL KINGDOM: See Heaven.
ELOHIM: The name of God the Father.
EXALTATION: This is becoming a God in the highest level of the celestial kingdom.
ETERNAL PROGRESSION: The teaching that each of us has the potential to become a God just like God the Father did. He was once a man capable of physical death, was resurrected and progressed to become a God. We can take a similar path and get all the power, glory, dominion, and knowledge the Father and Jesus Christ has. We then will be able to procreate spirit children who will worship us as we do God the Father.
GOD: Usually means God the Father. He was once a man like us capable of physical death and he progressed until he became a God. He has a body of flesh and bones, but no blood. Within Mormonism, Gods, angels, people and devils all have the same nature or substance but are at different stages along the line of progression to Godhood.
GRACE - The Mormon concept of grace means making oneself worthy of the grace of God by doing good works in the church, temple, and community.
HEAVEN-The Mormon church teaches there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory"):
HELL: A place of torment from which the worst of sinners are resurrected (if they repent) into the Telestial kingdom; only a limited number remain in hell forever, - the devil and the demons and apostates who consciously reject and work against Mormonism.
HOLY GHOST: The third member of the Godhead, a personage of spirit, unlike the Father and Son who have bodies of flesh and bones.
JEHOVAH: The pre-incarnate name for Jesus Christ.
JESUS CHRIST: The spirit of Jesus Christ was the first spirit born to God the Father and his wife (Heavenly Mother). He progressed to become a God under the Father. (The Father is also the literal father of Jesus' body in the exact same way we were begotten by our earthly parents.) He now has a body of flesh and bones, but no blood. He is the spirit brother of Satan whose spirit was procreated in the same way as Jesus'. To Mormons, even the atonement of his shed blood is not enough to provide forgiveness of sin and bring eternal life. Stripped of his Deity and demoted to a partial Savior, the Jesus of Mormonism has been robbed of his power and authority. Not only is the Mormon Jesus one who had struggled to achieve his own salvation, he also failed to establish his church. Both in Jerusalem and in the America's where Jesus was supposed to have visited, he attempted to build a group of followers. But in each case, truth was overcome by the alleged early church apostasy into false teaching.
MARRIAGE: The Mormon Church teaches two types of marriage. One ends at death. The other is for "time and eternity." If the couple is married in a Mormon temple by someone with authority it is believed they will stay married in the next life. This kind of marriage is needed if they are to progress, not only as husband and wife, but as God and Goddess.
MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD: The higher of two categories of ministry in the LDS Church, assigned primarily to seasoned members over the age of 18, males only.
POLYGAMY: The practice of men having more than one wife was started by Joseph Smith in the early/mid 1830's and ostensibly ended in 1890. It is not now sanctioned by the LDS church headquartered in Salt Lake City. Members found practicing it are excommunicated. While the practice was ended, the revelation teaching it is still in Mormon scripture (Doctrine & Covenants 132). Some Mormon splinter groups believe the teaching was for eternity and still practice it. These modern-day polygamists (called fundamentalists) number in the 30,000-50,000 range.
PRE-EXISTENCE: The Mormon teaching that our spirits (Mormons and non-Mormons) were procreated in a premortal life by God the Father and our Mother in Heaven, that our spirits were born and raised to maturity before coming to earth to obtain physical bodies, and that the spirit of Jesus Christ was the first one born to our Heavenly parents.
PRIESTHOOD: A category of ministry in the LDS Church open to all worthy males 12 years of age or older, empowering them to act in God's name. Non-Mormons cannot hold the priesthood, hence they have no authority. Men of African descent have only recently (by special correction of the original revelations) been allowed to hold these offices.
PROPHET: The top leader of the Mormon Church is considered not only a prophet but is also a seer and revelator. He has the title "president." He is the only one who can speak for the whole church and receive new revelation for the whole church. When the current prophet dies, the most senior (time as an apostle, not age) of the twelve apostles, the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, becomes the new president. He can appoint counselors, who receive their authority from him.
SALVATION: A word that Mormons qualify in one of three ways: unconditional or general salvation is simply resurrection from the dead, granted to all through Christ's atonement; conditional or individual salvation involves entering the celestial kingdom through works of Mormonism; full salvation means exaltation to become a God as a result of temple ceremonies and other works. The word 'salvation' can have a two-fold meaning: a) forgiveness of sins and b) universal resurrection:
The Mormons have several different levels of "salvation".
SATAN: One of the spirit children of God. As a consequence of their rebellion Satan and his angels cannot have mortal bodies - hence cannot progress.
SCRIPTURES: The Mormon Church has four documents it calls canonized scriptures: the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and the King James Version of the Holy Bible.
SON OF GOD: Along with Jesus Christ, all of us are viewed as the children of God, his literal spirit children. This makes us all - Mormons, non-Mormons, Jesus Christ and Satan - spirit brothers.
SPIRITS: Nonmaterial beings allegedly procreated in the pre-existence by God the Father and his wife. Jesus Christ, and even we ourselves, were supposedly born and raised to maturity as spirits before coming into bodies on this earth. The spirit of Satan was also procreated in this way. This makes Satan and Jesus Christ spirit brothers. Jesus selected a righteous path; Satan selected the opposite.
STANDARD WORKS: The four canonized scriptures (see Scripture above) used by the Mormon Church are called the Standard Works.
TEMPLE: One of about four dozen special (for LDS) buildings around the world in which sacred (to LDS) ceremonies are performed for the living and the dead; off limits to nonmembers and even to Mormons who lack a "temple recommend" from their leaders. Only about 20% of the Mormons qualify to go.
TRINITY: This word is used by Christians to summarize the Biblical teaching that within the one true God is three persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. They share the same nature or substance so that there are not three Gods, but three persons in the one God. Mormons say they also believe in the Trinitarian concept of God. But really what they mean are that God the Father is a God, God the Son is another God, and God the Holy Ghost is a third God and they are "one God" because they are "one in purpose." Mormons often have an incorrect understanding of what Christians mean by the "Trinity." They say Christians believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one person (i.e., Monophysiteism) or that God shows himself as the Father or the Son or the Holy Ghost (i.e. Modalism).
VIRGIN BIRTH: A concept negated by the view that God, a resurrected man with flesh and bones according to Mormon teachings, literally fathered Jesus in the flesh in the same way in which earthly men father their children. Despite the documented position of previous Mormon prophets, presidents, and apostles about the nature of Christ's conception, modern LDS apologists maintain that "Christ was born of a virgin". How can they? By changing the definition of the word "virgin". The reasoning goes like this: since Mary had sexual relations with an immortal man, not a mortal man, the phrase "virgin birth" still applies.
WORD OF WISDOM: The name for the Mormon Church's teaching requiring abstinence from tobacco, alcohol, and hot drinks (tea and coffee).
 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, ' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.' |
Both Catholicism and Mormonism want to be Master.
THEIR way is correct; Your way is wrong, Wrong, WRONG!
It is basic Theology 101. God the is the only uncreated, uncaused...God came into existence...There was only the "Father."
...the Father also immediately had a perfect love for the Son. This love resulted in the third person was the Holy Spirit.
Dude....you're more off base than I originally thought. To be honest, this is not even close to Christianity. I don't think even catholicism teaches this nonsense.
Indeed, as it is close to Mormonism, but when someone insists that we worship and pray to the Bible then it should not be surprising (although it is) to see this kind of creative theology presented as theology 101. Where this "God came into existence" "Gods first thought was of Himself...resulted in the Son" "love for the Son...resulted in the third person" is found in classic theology would be interesting to know. The Son proceeding forth from the Father is not God's first thought...
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. (Psalms 90:2)
But thou, Beth–lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. (Micah 5:2)
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