Posted on 05/24/2016 6:49:46 AM PDT by Salvation
Many of you know that I write the Question and Answer column for Our Sunday Visitor. Given the celebration of Trinity Sunday this past Sunday, I thought I might reproduce here on the blog a question/answer regarding the Trinity. It is a fairly common question; perhaps you have it, too. Remember that my answers in the column are required to be brief.
We read in a recent Sunday Gospel (May 1, 2016) that Jesus says that the Father is greater than He (Jn 14:28). Since we are all taught that each Divine Person of the Blessed Trinity fully possesses the nature of God, equally to be adored and glorified, what did Jesus mean by such a statement?” – Dick Smith, Carrolton, TX.
Theologically, Jesus means that the Father is the eternal source in the Trinity. All three persons of the Trinity are co-eternal, co-equal, and equally divine. But the Father is the Principium Deitatis (the Source in the Deity).
Hence, Jesus proceeds from the Father from all eternity. He is eternally begotten of the Father. In effect, Jesus is saying, “I delight that the Father is the eternal principle or source of my being, even though I have no origin in time.”
Devotionally, Jesus is saying that He always does what pleases His Father. Jesus loves His Father; He’s crazy about Him. He is always talking about Him and pointing to Him. By calling the Father greater, He says (in effect), “I look to my Father for everything. I do what I see Him doing (Jn 5:19) and what I know pleases Him (Jn 5:30). His will and mine are one. What I will to do proceeds from Him. I do what I know accords with His will.”
So although the members of the Trinity are all equal in dignity, there are processions in the Trinity, such that the Father is the source, the Son eternally proceeds from Him (Jn 8:42), and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son as from one principal (Jn 15:26).
St Thomas speaks poetically of the Trinity as follows:
Genitori, Genitoque … Procedenti ab utroque … compar sit laudautio
(To the One Who Begets, and to the Begotton One, and to the One who proceeds from them both, be equal praise.)
The Athanasian Creed says the following regarding these processions:
The Father is made by none, neither created nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone, neither made nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son, not made, nor created, nor begotten, but he proceeds from them.
So although equal, processions do have an order. The Father is “greater” (as source), but is equal in dignity to Son and Holy Spirit.
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You contradict yourself in your sentence. In the first sentence above you suggest God's thought was so powerful and perfect it resulted in the Son.
The only way to understand that is to believe you are saying the Son was created.
Then you attempt to clarify your meaning by posting this which further confuses your post.
Not as a created being, but rather as a reflection of the Father with all of His divinity.
Yet, further in the post you have this.
This love resulted in the third person was the Holy Spirit.
This "love resulted" comments suggests you are saying the Holy Spirit was also created.
And I thought you had contradictory understandings of the role of Mary and Christ regarding our salvation and now you post this contradictory post that may or may not indicate you believe both the Son and Holy Ghost were somehow created which would be a contradiction of the Word.
Here's a simple question:
Has the Son and the Holy Ghost always existed as has the Father?
John 1:1 as posted before.
Plus:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, Matt 28:19
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. John 8:58
14The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. 2 Corinthians 13:14
The Father, Son and Holy Ghost have always existed.
Now John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
This says that Jesus was from the beginning of time, that He was with God and that He was God. It says nothing about the Holy Spirit.
The Father, Son and Holy Ghost have always existed
And I never said anything different than that.
JAKraig question from post # 10 was about the ORIGIN OF THE TRINITY.
Nothing you have presented addresses that. As I said If you have a different/ better explanation I would love to see it.
Elsie:
Well, not 100% in agreement, the entire reason for the Creeds was because there were divergent interpretations about Scripture. Tradition, i.e. what was handed on through the Church did play a role in how said scriptures were interpreted, i.e. Patristic writings and how the Church prayed in Liturgy, etc.
'Scuse me, but, if God is the only uncreated, uncaused being, how is it He "came into existence"??? God has ALWAYS existed - that is the mystery our finite minds won't be able to wrap around but it will still be the truth. This is the REAL basic Theology 101.
I have no clique, I am not a Catholic.
Then please feel free to give your explanation of the origin of the Trinity, I would love to see it.
Your unwillingness or inability to explain the origin of the Trinity is noted.
Jesus IS God, as God intersects our dimensional limits. That is what Jesus taught His disciples in the Upper room discourse the night bef9ore He was crucified. If you have trouble grasping that, let me know and I will expand upon it. It is the key to not only explaining the Trinitarian concept of God but also the way to comprehend how God can be a man and still be God, and simultaneously be The Holy Spirit and still be God. ‘Hear oh Israel, our God is One.’.
Now pay close attention. This is what you wrote (Bold emphasis mine):
Gods first thought was of Himself and that thought was so powerful and perfect that it resulted in the Son. Not as a created being, but rather as a reflection of the Father with all of His divinity.
The way you structured your sentence you say in the first part that God's thought resulted in the Son.....the implication that the Son came after the Father.
There's no other way to understand that sentence. Unless somehow you are redefining words as catholics do to justify their worship of Mary.
I'll ask the simple question again you have yet to answer.
Has the Son and the Holy Ghost always existed as has the Father?
You've been shown examples from the Word which explains the Trinity.
The Father, Son and Holy Ghost have always existed. There is no origin point.
You're starting to sound more JW than catholic.
When God came into existence
Say what???? When God came into existence?
there was nothing else all was void.
His first thought must have been self awareness.
Say what again??
The only possible outcome of an omnipotent being becoming self aware would be for that awareness to be a mirrored reflection or that omnipotent perfection.
When the second being instantly became sentient there was no longer the void, There was only the "Father." The "Father" loved the "Son" with a perfect all powerful love and the "Son" loved the "Father" with an identical love. The love that proceeded from both the "Father" and the "Son" was also Omnipotent and perfect. As the "Father" and "Son" are both sentient there love must be sentient as well. This sentience is the Holy Spirit.
Dude....you're more off base than I originally thought.
To be honest, this is not even close to Christianity. I don't think even catholicism teaches this nonsense.
God did not come into existence. He has always been. He has no beginning and no end.
To be clear...the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost have always existed and will always exist.
If you do not understand that concept you need to start over with remedial theology.
John 1:1
New International Version ... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.New Living Translation ... In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
English Standard Version ... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Berean Study Bible ... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Berean Literal Bible ... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
New American Standard Bible ... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
King James Bible ... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Even before there was time or space, The Word IS I AM
Douay-Rheims Bible ... IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
As Time came into existence (the beginning is a temporal expression of first temporal) The Word already was God, The Holy Spirit already was God.
It is obvious you have little or no understanding of even the most basic concepts of theology. You have yourself a good evening.
Then explain that nonsense you posted in your post #160.
Baaaaaaad joke
Verga, God has no ‘origin’ to which you or I can point, as the quote of John 1:1 illustrates.
I just HATE when that happens!
Perhaps you might want to think before you post.
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