Posted on 05/21/2016 8:38:01 AM PDT by Salvation
Q. Many of our Protestant brethren say that, before Jesus comes, there will be a rapture wherein all the faithful will be taken up, I guess, to meet Him in the sky. When I tell them that the Bible says we will “see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven” (Mt 24:30) and “he will send his angels ... and they will gather his elect from the four winds” (Mt 24:31), and then ask them who will be left to “gather” if everyone has previously been “raptured,” they say it will be the Jews. What is the Church’s teaching on this? Will there even be such a thing as the rapture? I’m confused! Any light you can shed on the subject will be greatly appreciated!
Rich Willette, Springfield, Vt.
A. The notion of rapture (a Latin word that means to be snatched away) is a very novel concept among certain (not all) evangelicals. It is a notion less than 150 years old and finds no real support in the biblical text as you point out. Fundamentally, the theory asserts that before the final tribulations of the last times, faithful Christians will be snatched away. Rapture theorists disagree about the exact moment of the snatching. Some say it will be pre-tribulation, others midway through the tribulations, and some even say post-tribulation.
The root text for evangelicals who hold rapture theory is a text from the First Letter to the Thessalonians: “Indeed. we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, console one another with these words” (4:15-18).
The context is the second coming of Christ. There are not two second comings taught in Scripture, but rapture theory posits two — the one described in First Thessalonians and another one, some 1,000 years later. Note, too, that in First Thessalonians there is no mention of some people being left behind. There is no mention of a 1,000-year reign. Nor does St. Paul indicate that what he is describing here is a different coming of Christ, distinct from other texts in the Gospel wherein Christ describes His own second coming.
Thus we are left with a text that simply does not support what rapture theorists say. They further strive to unnaturally stitch this account with other texts in the Book of Revelation. The result is a highly debatable account of the last days that even rapture theorists hotly debate in terms of the details. The whole enterprise amounts to an attempt to shoehorn biblical passages into rapture theory that more clearly call it into question. To say the “elect” are merely the Jews is speculative at best and fanciful and contrived at worst.
As for Catholic teaching on these matters, the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes it as follows: “Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers [see Lk 18:8; Mt 24:12]. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the ‘mystery of iniquity’ in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh. [see 2 Thes 2:4-12; 1 Thes 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; 1 Jn 2:18-22]” (No. 675).
Thanks you too
You are correct that Jesus did not use the word harpazo in that Discourse, but it appears you do not want to see that He was referring to what He, through the Holy Spirit, more fully revealed with Paul's writing of things GOD showed him when he was taken up to heaven, as described to the Galatians.
It is left to a believer to reason these issues out. If you choose to not go any further with them, so be it. pax vobiscum.
The taking these to Himself and back tot he Father's House, found in John 14 is not something happening after the Tribulation because the Bride returns with Him at the end of the Tribulation and is with Him reigning here during the millennium.
Several good teachers have pointed to Jesus paralleling the events of the Church Age and the Rapture and the time in Heaven prior to returning tot he earth, paralleling these with the process of the Jewish wedding process. Seeing those parallels might help ...
Thank you, I’ve been trying to get that cleared up. When Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse, He was teaching His Jewish disciples what would be the final events of the seventieth week of Daniel, a prophecy given to the Jews, not to the Church of believers. we will not be here when the events Jesus describes occur. The testing not aimed at the Ekklesia.
Exactly. Like you said, more than a few of us just accepted what we were taught without investigating it for ourselves.
Matt 24:29-31 is not about the Rapture. In that passage the Angels are sent out to go agathering. In the Rapture an Angel speaks and a trumpet sounds, and there are no angels -plural- going gathering because the Raptured are caught up into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and return to the Father’s House.
I will get raptured 13 hours before you do, because of the time difference. 😀😃😇
Those left behind, can take whatever I leave, if the government doesn't steal all of it, and they might.
Apart from the rapture occurring 7 years previous, we both agree. But the Lord's words in Jn. 14:1-3 do not state an immediate entrance into the many dwelling places, but that the believers will henceforth be with the Lord: "that where I am, there ye may be also." (cf. 1Thes. 4:17) Whatever the many dwelling places actually entails, it would seem to be part of the rewards which would be after the judgment seat of Christ, the first resurrection.
I am fine with the rapture occurring pre trib, but see it as being the resurrection at the end of the trib. as best conforming to Mt. 24. But i do not get into precise eschatology too dogmatically.
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Curiously enough, some teach in error that the "falling away (apostasia)" is the rapture. They claim that apostosia, composed from apo and histemi, means to depart from the earth rather than the faith.
The rapture is tightly coupled with the parousia of the Messiah ( the coming of Messiah, the Second Coming of Christ ). There will not be one without the other, and they occur at the same time.
Thanks for your post.
You are trying to mixing two very different things Jesus said into being about the same thing. They are not as shown by scripture here in this thread. I will only take the Word as stated not as assumed or made to fit a believed doctrine, so bunny trails just don’t work with me.
Nowhere have you shown direct scripture evidence for a pre-trib rapture or the church removed from earth. The millennium rule of Jesus is here on earth, heavenly Jerusalem and earthly Jerusalem joined. This place Jesus prepares for us eternity secure in him alone.
Yes it is his second coming. We need to stop using this term rapture. We are caught to him in the air as he returns to earth.
Yes I never thought I did that because i so respected my teachers on the things I had studied for myself, they were scripturally correct on most things. I don’t make that mistake any more and have learned correctly so much since. Very grateful to the Holy Spirit that he didn’t leave me in my former state.
I like your homepage.
But it can DEFINITELY use some paragraphs!
Well said.
You haven’t seen the catholics try to find the Marian dogmas in the Word have you?
The derivation of the word “rapture” comes from the Latin [Vulgate] translation of the scriptures, which employs the Latin word “rapiemur" in 1 Thess. 4: 17 (or “raptus" in 2 Cor. 12:4) which means to carry off or to be “caught up." But in Greek (the original language of the N.T.) the word harpazo is used instead (the very word employed in 2 Cor. 12:2,4), which, like rapiemur or raptus means to be “caught up”, carried away by force: seized, snatched. Language difference notwithstanding, the meaning is the same. - THE controversial BIBLE MATTERS (Hard Cover) By Phil Leary, p. 491
The Vulgate is not without translational errors, yet i do not think rapiemur for harpazo in 1 Thess. 4: 17 is not invalid, but the word also can simply basically mean "take," including by force, as in the violent taking the kingdom of God, or to snatch, such as from the heart, or from the Father's hand, or up to someplace else. (Mat_11:12, Joh_6:15; Act_23:10; Mat_13:19, Act_8:39; Mat_13:19; Joh_10:12; Joh_10:28-29; Jud_1:23)
Thus the word can just as well describe the resurrection as being at the end of the Trib as well as the proposed previous one called the rapture.
I suggest you get a concordance and do a word study on the Greek word "eklektos", translated as elect or chosen, before you make such statements. It is used 21 times in the NT, and 3 refer to Jesus, 1 to angels, 11 clearly to the church, and another six in Matt 24 and Mark 13. NOWHERE does the NT clearly refer to the elect as the nation of Israel! The six mentioned previously you would argue refer to Israel to fit the pre-trib rapture doctrine, and I would say they refer to the church.
of the 15 uses of the word "tribulation" in the NT, 10 times refers to tribulation of the church, 4 times to the end time, and once (!) to the world! Perhaps you should ponder John 16:33. "In this world, you will have tribulation..."
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.