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Perpetual virginity
OSV.com ^ | 03-09-16 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 03/12/2016 9:36:07 AM PST by Salvation

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To: ealgeone
see you’re still claiming to be smarter than the pope there TC.

Where, in post 675, was the Pope even mentioned....and as far as Being smarter than the Pope is concerned....many people are smarter than he is in various different fields...he has a physician, legal counsel, advisers on many topics, he is just a man. I have several skills that he can't possibly have so in these areas...yes, I am smarter than the Pope....and probably you too.

681 posted on 03/15/2016 7:33:11 PM PDT by terycarl (COMMON SENSE PREVAILS OVER ALL)
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To: terycarl

Before.

And over a longer period.

The people of Salem had to learn it from somebody!


682 posted on 03/15/2016 7:47:17 PM PDT by Gamecock ( Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul...Matthew 10:28)
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To: Delta 21

pingaling to 596


683 posted on 03/15/2016 8:10:49 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Democrats bait then switch; their fishy voters buy it every time.)
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To: Gamecock
The people of Salem had to learn it from somebody!

Did they learn it from the Catholic Church?

684 posted on 03/15/2016 8:21:36 PM PDT by Mark17 (Thank God I have Jesus, there's more wealth in my soul than acres of diamonds and mountains of gold)
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To: metmom; DungeonMaster
Mary did NOT sacrifice Him for us. He wasn't hers to offer. Honestly, the nonsense Catholics believe to deify Mary is appalling.

Indeed, as she had no power over this decision, and instead of the Lord's mission awaiting the consent of Mary, what we see is some lack of comprehension of this on her part and thus the Lord reminding her that He had a higher allegiance, and had more than one mother and brethren:

And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? (Luke 2:49)

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. (John 2:4)

While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. (Matthew 12:46-47)

But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. (Matthew 12:48-50)

Even the consent of Mary to bear Christ was an affirmation of what was already decreed, though God know she would consider herself blessed to be that mother, but her assent was not asked for the the crucifixion nor did it await it, nor would any protest by her have prevented it, and likely Mary did not expect the crucifixion. To liken it to Abraham offering Isaac in sacrifice to God is perverse, as that act itself required his obedience, and thus it was a test. All Mary could do was affirm the will of God and Her Son's own decision, over which she had no power.

685 posted on 03/15/2016 8:51:51 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: DungeonMaster; metmom
When I found De Montfort I thought I found the pinnacle of such thinking. I was wrong. There have been many others who believe write the same things.

You have done this before, quoting Mary worship without any critique, as if you were a Cath affirming the same thing as they. Unless you want responses that treat you as a Cath devotee then you need to provide the kind of censure that you finally gave after being rebuked.

686 posted on 03/15/2016 8:55:47 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: Tao Yin
Tao Yin: Firstborn is a title with rights and privileges that does not require a second.

imardmd1: I guess that means Jesus is going to be alone in heaven.

Tao Yin: I think you read too much into simple statements...

Yeah, I shouls have added a "/sarc" to the above, shouldn't I? Someone read too little into it.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be
conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the
firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29 AV).

"While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and
his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren
stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered
and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who
are my brethren?" (Mt. 12:46-48 AV).

Jesus compares literal language to figurative-literal language in the above and draws a parallel between the two..

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the
beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all
things he might have the preeminence" (Col. 1:18 AV).

God gives James and Jude the presence of mind to draw back from emphasizing their family relationship to Jesus lest it cause less spirityally sensitive observers to try to attach more "holiness by association" than the situation warrants.

"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting" (James 1:1 AV)

James avoids presuming upon the family aspect, of pressing upon the reader any advantage that might be thought arising from it, claiming only that which is permitted, the blood-bought right of Jesus to be his Master.

"These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage" (Jude, verse 1 AV).

Jude, drother of James, both broyjers of Jesus, not prsuming on the special circumstance their biths afford, nor upon Mary the mother of Jesus and theirs, warns all Christians of being awed by persons who would trade on their advantage.

Salvation is by faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ and His Blood, and not because of any other reason.

687 posted on 03/15/2016 9:27:25 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: Syncro
Maybe its the "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" that gets people confused and upset, /sarc

(no salvation outside the Latin-based mumbo-jumbo church)

688 posted on 03/15/2016 9:37:06 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: metmom

Mom, its all a part of the marketing strategy and profitablity of the business model of making little images, ripped off from the Ephesian silversmiths. By knocking out the Diana competition, the field of making millions of these little images, generation by generation, instead of “Great is Diana of Ephesus!” now we have the replacement, “Great is Mary of Rome.” IMHO.


689 posted on 03/15/2016 9:47:43 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: terycarl

Hanging heretics is just reformed “Auto da fe.” The Perpetual virginity thing just adds to the cachet and profitability.


690 posted on 03/15/2016 10:03:05 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: imardmd1

Heh, and thanks for the translation so your post can not cause problems.

It’s so simple, if a foreign phrase or word is not understood by just about everyone in the world, then it needs translating in order to be posted in the RF.

It’s like the difference, which is apparently not understood by some posters, between anti-Catholic—anti an individual Catholic, and anti-Catholicism—posting about errors in Catholicism.

RM rules are clear no anti-Catholic (or anti any other faith adherent) posts will be tolerated, but anti-Any-Faith-System-That-Exists posts are OK.


691 posted on 03/15/2016 11:04:43 PM PDT by Syncro (Benghazi-LIES/Coverup Treason ARREST the traitors! Hillary-Obama-Rice-Holder-Learner-Lynch et al)
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To: Tao Yin
Because Jesus was to be born of a virgin. That's the important part. That's what scripture addresses.

But . . . but . . . but "never" does it much better if they are to be forever celibate. "Until" is just too iffy to build a dogma on.

I've wondered myself. I know in some cases, humans have a problem of looking for answers where God doesn't give any.

Yet. That's what progressive revelation was about. Now it's progressive interpretation, made clear after time and the scientific method cut in. See Daniel 12:8,9,13

It seems pretty clear. Born of a virgin. David's heir. Is there something else I'm missing?

Yes. Mary needed to retain observably the tokens of her virginal appearance right up until birth. But she as no longer considered a virgin after the babe's exit through the birth canal. After that, no other proof is needed for Jesus' miraculous birth narrative.

But Joseph needs to be the husband of record when Jesus is born into Joseph's household. The royal pedigree by primogeniture of sonhood from a father tracing back to Solomon is where Jesus' right to the throne is transferred, once and for all time.

Jesus was credited as being Joseph's son by those familiar with the family (Luke 4:22), who were present at Jesus' reading from Isaiah when He announced Himself as the fulfillment of that passage.

. . . hypotheticals . . .

Occurrences fulfilling prophecies are not hypotheticals.

I always try to separate personal ideas from scriptural truths.

Not if the ideas are prompted by the Holy Spirit by a prophet giving a Word as from God, "Thus saith the LORD . . ." or a Spirit-given interpretation (1 Cor. 2:9-16).

Was Jesus Joseph's son genetically? There is no reason that the Holy Spirit couldn't have used Joseph's DNA as a template when Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

Joseph's flesh was DNA-derived cellular material, infected with sin, and able to transmit only soul-life, but not physical or Spiritual life. His heritage was condemnation--death of the body and disunity from fellowship with Jehovah Elohim.

I believe Scripture says that Jesus was the Second Adam, not a second Joseph cloned from Joseph's sin-stained tissue. Nor from any part of Mary's either.

Everyone knows that Jesus' body needed to be of sin-free, but human, genetic matter. If not from Joseph or Mary, then where? Speculating, why not of the very same never-dying perfect tissue of which the body of the First Adam was made, into which Elohim breathed?

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen 2:7 AV).

If, by a manner not yet known to us, God invested Himself into such a fragment of perfect flesh, then implanted that Being into the willing, trusting Mary (Heb. 11:6), what then? (Implanting a living zygote foreign to a host mother's womb, even a virginal one, is something we do now know how to accomplish, isn't it?)

Not willing to admit their ignorance--being unlike faithful Daniel who accepted the limits placed on himself--in their false pride and "infallible" logic they reasoned out their own plan for this. And now, unwilling to walk this unnatural concept back, they are saddled with a dogma that is just as insupportable as the ignorance that invented a figment of the imagination called "transubstantiation" to explain a statement that needed no explanation when given the proper linguistic framework.

Ponder on this for a while, eh? Jesus was/is yet fully God and fully human, as human as Adam was before his faith crumbled under the serpent's devious capture of Eve's trust, when she became perfidious.

692 posted on 03/16/2016 1:11:18 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: Delta 21
Don't give up, my FRiend. Extract meaning from Scripture as Jesus did, with a literal-grammatical hermeneutic that is able to recognize and differentiate both literal language and figurative-literal language in the course of obtaining the spiritual meaning of a passage, in context and in culture. Refuse unsubstantiated enigma as the foundation of a doctrine, or a dogmatic nonsensical fixation.
693 posted on 03/16/2016 1:25:44 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: ealgeone
εγω is the first person pronoun. ειμι is the verb "to be". In Greek, the verb can express gender without need of a pronoun.

Ah, doggone. At first, I thought you were talking about Popeye.

694 posted on 03/16/2016 3:18:03 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: Tao Yin
Firstborn is a title with rights and privileges that does not require a second.

True; but 2000 years ago, normal folks had LOTS of children: it came with the territory.

Thus, if there is NO 'imperfection' found in Mary (after all; it's been proven that the system works on her side) Catholicism leaves us with two scenarios:

1. Mary purposefully denied Joseph his husbandly 'rights', or...
2. Joseph was shooting blanks.

695 posted on 03/16/2016 3:19:19 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Tao Yin
If I say, "I'm going to abstain from chocolate until Lent is over.", does this mean I will have chocolate after lent?

Probably.

Why 'abstain' from something that you are not likely to do in the first place?


"I'm going to abstain from chocolate FOREVER!" says another thing.

Although...

"I'm going to abstain from mountain oysters until Lent is over.", does NOT mean that I've EVER had them or intend to after Lent!

696 posted on 03/16/2016 3:32:38 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Tao Yin
If I say, "I'm going to abstain from chocolate until Lent is over.", does this mean I will have chocolate after lent?

Probably.

Why 'abstain' from something that you are not likely to do in the first place?


"I'm going to abstain from chocolate FOREVER!" says another thing.

Although...

"I'm going to abstain from mountain oysters until Lent is over.", does NOT mean that I've EVER had them or intend to after Lent!

697 posted on 03/16/2016 3:33:41 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Tao Yin

Lent

Yet another man made ‘tradition’ not found in the bible.


698 posted on 03/16/2016 3:34:39 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mark17
Yes, I see your point. The ONLY point I am trying make, is that Mary was NOT a perpetual virgin, and was not some sinless demigoddess, but a sinner, just like all of us.

Fire up the deep fryer; Friar!!


699 posted on 03/16/2016 3:39:33 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: verga
I was asked an incredibly stupid question, and gave the only answer that seemed appropriate.

Evidently; YOUR idea of appropriateness is a wee bit different than what the RM thinks it is.

700 posted on 03/16/2016 3:41:01 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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