Posted on 01/26/2016 7:32:29 PM PST by ebb tide
"Rise, Peter, and fulfill this pastoral office divinely entrusted to you as mentioned above.
Give heed to the cause of the holy Roman Church, mother of all churches and teacher of the faith, whom you by the order of God, have consecrated by your blood. Against the Roman Church, you warned, lying teachers are rising, introducing ruinous sects, and drawing upon themselves speedy doom. Their tongues are fire, a restless evil, full of deadly poison. They have bitter zeal, contention in their hearts, and boast and lie against the truth.
[...]
Moreover, because the preceding errors and many others are contained in the books or writings of Martin Luther, we likewise condemn, reprobate, and reject completely the books and all the writings and sermons of the said Martin, whether in Latin or any other language, containing the said errors or any one of them; and we wish them to be regarded as utterly condemned, reprobated, and rejected. We forbid each and every one of the faithful of either sex, in virtue of holy obedience and under the above penalties to be incurred automatically, to read, assert, preach, praise, print, publish, or defend them. They will incur these penalties if they presume to uphold them in any way, personally or through another or others, directly or indirectly, tacitly or explicitly, publicly or occultly, either in their own homes or in other public or private places.
[...]
Therefore we can, without any further citation or delay, proceed against him to his condemnation and damnation as one whose faith is notoriously suspect and in fact a true heretic with the full severity of each and all of the above penalties and censures.
Yet, with the advice of our brothers, imitating the mercy of almighty God who does not wish the death of a sinner but rather that he be converted and live, and forgetting all the injuries inflicted on us and the Apostolic See, we have decided to use all the compassion we are capable of. It is our hope, so far as in us lies, that he will experience a change of heart by taking the road of mildness we have proposed, return, and turn away from his errors. We will receive him kindly as the prodigal son returning to the embrace of the Church.
Therefore let Martin himself and all those adhering to him, and those who shelter and support him, through the merciful heart of our God and the sprinkling of the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ by which and through whom the redemption of the human race and the upbuilding of holy mother Church was accomplished, know that from our heart we exhort and beseech that he cease to disturb the peace, unity, and truth of the Church for which the Savior prayed so earnestly to the Father. Let him abstain from his pernicious errors that he may come back to us. If they really will obey, and certify to us by legal documents that they have obeyed, they will find in us the affection of a father's love, the opening of the font of the effects of paternal charity, and opening of the font of mercy and clemency."
--Pope Leo X, Exsurge Domine
Yes, and I have a lot more where they came from. I've posted various portions of the collection before, and usually get the same response from Catholics: silence.
Peter’s ossuary was not “confirmed” in Jerusalem. An ossuary was found in Jerusalem which may read “Simon bar Jonah” or “Shimon Barzillai” or something else. The writing is not clear, as Milik himself stated explicitly:
“The reading of the patronym, as luck would have it, is not sure. The reading proposed in Liber Annuus III, p. 162 (YWNH) remains possible, but other possibilities for it can equally be proposed, such as ZYNH corresponding to Zena of n. 21.”
http://www.uhl.ac/en/projects/talpiot-tomb/shimon-barzillai/
I can’t find the ref at the moment, but I believe the bones found under St. Peter’s were studied. The ones that came from the loculus, if I remember right, were of an elderly man. In any case, the Christian literature was unanimous from the first century on that St. Peter died in Rome. A monument was built over the Vatican grave in the A.D. 170s, which is almost certainly the Tropaion of Gaius mentioned by Eusebius and probably also the memorial mentioned by the Liber Pontificalis.
Superficial? How many Calvinists say Mass? How many are bishops? How many keep the feasts of the martyrs? How many found religious orders? I don’t think the Puritans regarded them as superficial.
No Christian has any right to take one Church Father and inflate him into the ne plus ultra of doctrinal purity. Even if Augustine believed the same as you on grace (which I find absurd by the way, since Orange and Trent based their anathemas on his formulations), he must be viewed in the context of the teaching of the entire Church, which includes the Greek, Syriac, and desert Fathers.
You say I’m the one hung up on appearance, and it’s actually the opposite. You want to play “Augustinian” dress-up and march around pretending that you are 100% in line with one of the greatest theologians of all time, when he would have excommunicated you without a second thought.
I’ve read the City of God, the Confessions, and Possidius’s biography. I’ve done special studies on his Literal Interpretation of Genesis, and his collected liturgical quotations as compiled by Bishop in the 1920s. My position is based on a solid understanding of who the man was and what he thought, not cherry-picked quotations filtered through Calvin’s Institutes.
If there’s a group today that can claim the “Augustinian” mantle, it’s the Catholic monks and nuns who live his rule.
I will pray for you.
Fighting with fellow Christians and being divisive is sad. God bless you.
“Who in the world was Martin Luther to demand of the Catholic Church anything? What position of authority did he hold?”
Search the Scriptures NK. your answer is there.
It does. When the body has cancer, it is cut out. non-Roman churches separate themselves from apostate groups. Those fellowships, which are like those in Revelation - their candle-stick has been removed - die a slow death. This happens apart from the Body of Christ where is can't spread in our fellowships.Some differences in fellowships are simply non-essential beliefs that are protestant rites. They agree and fellowship around the core truths of the faith.
Contrast this with the Roman model of containing cancer within the churches and where everyone believes whatever they want, regardless of what is taught. Cancer continues to spread inside the Roman church.
Also, are YOU the judge of what is pure and what is not pure? Who appointed you the "pure" judge? I thought that was God's bailiwick.
God specifies the Gospel of Grace. Those who entrust themselves to Christ's sacrifice for all their sins - apart from their own efforts at self-righteousness - are His. It does not matter what chuch they fellowship at.Those who are caught up in their own works and useless religion are not His.
Search the Scriptures. There you will find an answer.
And who are YOU to call ALL the popes, from Peter onward, "sycretic pagans"? YOU appoint YOURSELF as their judge? Wow, that is ego. You've made yourself god.
I did not.Taking God at His word is not making oneself equal to God. It is acknowledging He alone is the authority on all matters in the church.
Peter was not a Pope, as this is not a NT Church office.
He was a flawed, but godly man God used.
As time went on, exactly what Paul and John warned about happened. As Rome expanded, the Roman church incorporated pagan practices - not found in the NT church anywhere - to make pagans feel at home. By the time of Luther, the Roman church was far from God's teachings in the Scripture. It remains so in practice today.
May God bless and keep you, son.
Back at you.
Live links are needed
Live links? Would you promise to use them and read the materials??? I didn’t think so ...
The problem, one explanation for the silence, would be on two levels.
“Tradition” admits of modification and development and of respectfulnreading of people with parts of whose work (or lives) we disagree. Chrysostom and Ephrem of Syria were VERY anti-semitic, yet they were very good in other things. Tertullian went off the rails, yet we read him. Some of us read Luther and Calvin!
Also, if I were a better scholar, I would go look for Augustine and Chrysostom on good works and merit and so forth. For it is written, “The large print giveth, but the small print taketh away,” and I don’t think the ways of a man with a maid or of God with a soul can be tidily explained.
I will say this. A lot of Catholics seem inordinately focussed on the small question of merit. If I had won the recent kafillion dollar lottery, I would be too busy being astounded to spend time making sure that it was clear that, ahem, I bought the ticket.
Popes with their white priestly robes and mitres would look rather like snowflakes I would imagine.
Wrong. Orthodox and Catholics share the same sacraments. I can go to an orthodox Mass and receive communion and they can do the same.
The Reformation completely broke the church apart. The 60,000 or so protestant sects do whatever in the world they feel like doing at services and everyone is there own little authority on the Bible, and they’re all right, just ask them. Millions of protestants don’t even bother going to church, they say attending Church on Sunday is not required so they’re not going.
Mind reading again? How do you know for sure?
Okay, a sample:
Something more than a sample of excerpts from Augustine and Chrysostom is needed to support your assertion that “The Catholics essentially condemned folks like Augustine or Chrysostom at the same time, who didn’t say anything substantially different than Martin Luther.”
The Catholic Church does not condemn Augustine or Chrysostom. In fact, the Church regards them as Doctors of the Church, citing them several times in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Whether the Church should condemn them for holding the same beliefs that Luther held is certainly something that can be questioned, and I’m sure several have raised that question.
But the few excerpts provided do not fully reveal what the two doctors believed.
Can you provide links to any documents that support your assertion?
Peace,
Rich
BTW, what cheese to you prefer with your whine?
This idea that “The Church” broke apart is a serious error at best. There are heretics and schismatics that broke away from the Church, but the Church never broke apart. The Catholic Church has always taught that unity is in the Catholic Church and that the Church is the Catholic Church....well until Vatican II. Now we have all sorts of Catholics believing and stating that there is division in Christ’s Church.
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