Posted on 11/25/2015 10:50:25 AM PST by damonw
POST IS TOO LONG TO POST ALL HERE - A F.A.I.R. Mormon Apologist by the name of CC (CleanCut) submitted a response to ALL 17 of the claims in this post 17 Little Known Facts About the Mormons
What follows is,,,
1. the 17 facts as stated by Challengemin.org
2. CCs comments. (You see CCs original comments for verification on the above post comments section)
3. my (Damons) counter comments.
FACT #1 The Mormon Church teaches ALL other Churches are WRONG; ALL their creeds are an ABOMINATION in the sight of God; and ALL their teachers are corrupt.
One of the Mormon Books of Scripture, The Pearl of Great Price, says this about non-LDS churches: … they were ALL WRONG and the Personage who addressed me said that ALL their creeds were an ABOMINATION in his sight; that those professors were ALL CORRUPT.(Joseph Smith 2:19).
____________________________________
CC: The truth about this fact is that The LDS Church teaches that all churches have some truth, just not the fullness of the truth. This particular quote refers to the creeds of the churches that we believe are wrong, but not that all the individual Christians who follow them are wrong in their sincere desire to follow Christ the best they know how.
DAMON: Mormonism is built on the First visions of Joseph Smith. And while there are 3 contradictory accounts of this First Vision, they all agree in making the false assertion that Christianity is apostate and an abomination to God. Mormonism has this in common with all churchs (Christian cults) that started from Campbells Restoration Movement.
This post shows what Mormon leaders have always said, and still do say about Christianity. AND IT AINT NICE
So Joel Osteen says Mormons are Christians, But what do Mormons say about Christianity?
(Excerpt) Read more at discerningsounddoctrine.wordpress.com ...
I am a Mormon, and very happy to be one. I have been blessed to associate with fellow church members for over 25 years, and have found them to be people who are trying to have a positive influence in the world, in the communities in which they live, and raise families who love God and love one another. From the time I joined the church until now, I have heard the same faith over and over again expressed from my friends in the church: that God is real, that Jesus Christ is the Savior of mankind, and that our mission and duty is to love and serve Him. I have no doubt at all that Jesus is the Messiah, and my Savior, that he lived, suffered, died on the cross, and rose from the dead, and that he now reigns in the heavens and will at some future point return to the earth as King of kings and Lord of lords. That’s what my faith is rooted in, and that’s the faith I have heard expressed by my fellow church members time and again.
Fact: you’re thinking is a bit confused.
Only against that OTHER big church that says that IT is the only way.
I want to extend TRUE happiness towards them!
The JOY of the Lord; not the yoke of MormonISM.
And yet you have left out anything that rings of the uniqueness of MormonISM.
...that Jesus Christ is the Savior of mankind...
I've posted PLENTY of Mormon FACTS, scripture and quotes from the religious organization based in Salt Lake City.
You have chosen to address none of them; but at least you have responded as a representative of The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints.
#30...
#39...
D&C 49:18-19 18 And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God; |
 |
D&C 89:12-13
12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; |
| Census Year | Total Population | |
|---|---|---|
| 1820 | 9,638,453 | |
| 1830 | 12,860,702 | |
| 1840 | 17,063,353 | |
| 1850 | 23,191,876 |
I've also known gutter trash such as the stinky cabal who follows these threads around on Free Republic and elsewhere promoting the "Mormons aren't Christians" or "Mormons promote gay marriage" or other similar ridiculous themes. They basically fall under three categories.
The "evidence" which they offer to support these themes is based on spotlighting the exceptions as the rule. i.e. Butch Cassidy was raised as a Mormon, but he robbed banks. Or their own private interpretation of scripture. Or the fact that the majority of Christians have a different view of the relationship of the three different parts of the trinity than do Mormons.
Those who don't fall into the gutter trash category (i.e. those who would've gladly stoned Stephen for his unorthodox preaching) are overwhelmingly in the final category.
On the final category, I do have to say that the Mormons have a very strong and compelling case both from the scriptures and the historical perspective. The baptism of Jesus puts all three elements of the trinity as separate entities . . . the earthly Jesus with a mortal body, the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove and the voice of God the father from heaven plus John 3:16 and numerous others which put Jesus as the only begotten son of God.
The historical case also puts the mainstream view of the trinity as originating from the Nicene Creed, a 4th century interpretation of Christianity which became mainstream by Constantine's burning of Arian books, exiling of Donatist clergy, and even his early attempts to reconcile Roman paganism with Christianity. In the very least, Constantine was not a nice man in these early years.
The bottom line is that if mainstream Protestants can claim the right to rebel against the Catholic church against the Christian mainstream as was constituted in the 16th century, then there is nothing illogical about Mormons (or anyone else) claiming the right to rebel against the Christian mainstream as it became constituted in the 4th century.
Thus, if God even has a favorite church, it will only be found in one of the following branches:
A. Catholicism, including the Eastern Orthodox variants, all of which claim apostolic succession from St. Peter, the rock upon which Christ built his church.
B. Restorationism, of which the Mormons are the largest sect by far.
C. The ancient purity of Christianity as preached (at least in partial form) by Jan Hus and the persecuted and exiled elements of thee Arian and Donatist clergy in Constantine's Day.
Obviously, I put myself in the "C" category but remain open to compelling evidence in "A" or "B". I believe this evidence will come to light by the time of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ as the various sects decide whether to align themselves with him or the fashionable philosophies of men in its various forms today manifest as political correctness, state sponsored religion or gutter trash oozing about wailing that only their private interpretation of religion is true and it doesn't matter what you actually do, only what you believe.
______________________________________________________
I suspect I know more about the Mormons than most people although there are likely Mormons who know more than me.
If you define “Christian” as one who follows the Nicean Creed or what most now call The Apostles Creed then no, Mormons are emphatically not Christian, but I don’t think that is a good definition even though perhaps most people think of that when they think “Christian”. I do not. In my mind anyone who tries to follow Christ and His teachings is Christian. If you follow the Nicean Creed then you are either one of the several “Catholic” churches or one of it's offshoots, Protestant if you will. I personally don't believe that the Nicean Creed really defines Christianity very well. I'm not saying there is something wrong with it but it really was created to put up a fence around a particular view of Christianity. I won't go into great detail here, I likely have in the past but I'm on vacation so will just touch the subject lightly. In 325 AD when the Emperor of Rome, Constantine, who was the head of a Non Christian Church called all the Christian Bishops to a meeting in Nicea he did it to define what Christianity was and was not. He allowed the different Bishops to present their definitions and decided on one in particular as what would be the legal Christianity. The Bishop who presented the winning plan was from Greece and had an ally from Egypt. The ally from Egypt was actually Greek but was living in Alexandria where he had a very large church and was a close friend of Constantine.
This “Eastern” view of Christianity was not accepted by approximately 1/3rd of those in attendance and they were threatened with expulsion, excommunication even death if they did not sign on, still very many didn't. Constantine relented and said they could still call their churches Christian and be a part of the now universal or “catholic” church without signing on to the Nicean Creed. The only part of this creed that was not acceptable was the definition of the “Holy Trinity”. For another 60 years there was division in The Church about the Trinity until another council was held in 385. After that it was mandatory to believe in the “Creed” to be Christian and to refuse could mean death, especially if you were a Church leader.
Today in the “Universal” Church we have a Pope, someone who is the senior bishop to all the others, he is considered “infallible” in his proclamations about Church doctrines. He occupies the same position as Peter did in the Early Church according to the Universal church as an Apostle of Jesus Christ.
Now to the point. In the Universal church or Catholic church specifically The Roman Catholic Church there has since it's beginning been a definition of who was in the universal church and who was not. If you said you believed in the Creed then you were else you were not. Believing in the creed did not make you Christian but made you part of the “Universal” or Catholic church. There have always been Christian churches that were not a part of this “Catholic” church and their differences were varied.
Eventually the Romans and Popes killed off most of the leaders of these non conforming churches although some still exist there are only a few left. I put Mormons in the same category as the non conforming early Christian churches. They are not part of the “Universal” church but are still most definitely Christian.
In the letters or epistles we have from the Apostle Paul we hear of him rebuking the several organized churches for their waywardness. The several churches without an Apostle in their presence would tend to fall away from the pure worship of Christ ascribed by the early church leaders and kept bringing other doctrines in. Although the churches taught many things that Paul condemned they were still considered Christian churches.
If you ever investigate the Mormons you will find that they are Christian. They worship The Son of God as The Savior of mankind. They worship His Father as God. They do not believe that Christ is The Father, they do however believe that He is the God of the Old Testament, that He is in fact Jehovah. that is in fact what nearly broke the universal church apart before it even got started in 325AD. there is no one alive or in holy writ save a very few who have claimed to see God The Father. There is really only one that I know of and that is the Martyr, Stephen. In his description of what he saw while being stoned to death for being a Christian he claimed he saw Jesus and God standing side by side. While John The Baptist never claimed to see God he did claim that there was a voice from Heaven testifying that Jesus was His Son.
I'm not trying to make an argument for the Mormon view of The Trinity only saying that there is plenty of room for acceptance of their view scripturally.
Mormons have a prophet who claims to be an ordained Apostle of Jesus Christ. The Roman Catholic Church makes a similar claim. While Roman Catholics don't call their Apostle a Prophet, apostles are by definition prophets. Really not much different than the Mormons except that the Catholics claim that their first Apostle was ordained by Christ in mortality and the line continues unbroken today. There are many who dispute this claim but, anybody can dispute anything. There is nobody forcing anybody to accept the Nicean Creed today. Unlike believers of Islam Christian can believe what they want and still claim to be Christians without having themselves crucified or losing their heads.
The Mormon churches in the area around my wifes church belong to a local group of “Christian” churches who perform humanitarian service to those in need. When this council of churches allowed the Mormons to start being a member a leader of one of the group of churches complained about it saying they weren't Christian. they asked the representative to summarize their beliefs and the council decided that they were indeed Christian and they became a member of the group.
I'm not sure why one person who says they are Christian would have so much animus with someone else who said he was a Christian but personally I think that anyone who really tries to follow Jesus Christ is a Christian. All churches probably have some baggage we would rather they left behind but I don't think it affects their being Christian.
Like the stuff FROM Mormonism that I've posted in this thread?
Why don't you address that?
Ezra Benson says something different from you; and he was a MORMON!
I suspect I know more about Christianity than most Mormons although there are likely Christians who know more than me.
Some Mormons undoubtedly become Christians, and evidently leave the Mormon sect they were members of behind.
(Thanks to delacort for compiling this list)
Is anyone forcing Mormons to follow the rules for a Temple Recommend®?
|
Temple Recommend Questions
1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost? 2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer? 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days? 4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church? 5 Do you live the law of chastity? 6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church? 7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? 8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel? 9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen? 10 Are you a full-tithe payer? 11 Do you keep the Word of Wisdom? 12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations? 13 If you have previously received your temple endowment: Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple? 14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been? 15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances? |
SALVATION: A word that Mormons qualify in one of three ways: unconditional or general salvation is simply resurrection from the dead, granted to all through Christ's atonement; conditional or individual salvation involves entering the celestial kingdom through works of Mormonism; full salvation means exaltation to become a God as a result of temple ceremonies and other works. The word 'salvation' can have a two-fold meaning: a) forgiveness of sins and b) universal resurrection:
The Mormons have several different levels of "salvation".
With the rest of us 'christians'??
https://www.lds.org/topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng
Surely you jest. All I have to do is go to tithing settlement and cough up a ton of money, pretend belief and cry in testimony meeting. Instant Celestial Kingdom!
Trouble is when I try to find the CK the dear Lord will say.....What? Never heard of it.
Why thank you
(You mean like the 90 to 95 % of Lds repubs who voted for liberal pro abortion, pro socialized Healthcare Romney? Since when is a favoring abortion or imposing got forced Healthcare on the populace “conservative?”)
Yes, but lately? So-called Christians held the inquisition, witch burnings and hangings, etc. Do they still do that? Bottom line, if I have to choose between Muslim neighbors and Mormon neighbors, I’ll take the Mormons. Though I’d prefer folks with beliefs closer to my own.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.