Papyrus in the Rylands Library, Manchester UK
Posted on 11/06/2015 11:30:07 AM PST by NYer
Papyrus in the Rylands Library, Manchester UK
One of the things that maddens and amuses me about Protestants is something called “primitivismâ€. I’ve written about it here. “Primitivism†is the ambition to return the church to the simplest form as it was in the “early churchâ€.
The little fundamentalist church in which I grew up worked on this assumption. They were going back to basics and getting rid of all those “man made traditionsâ€. They were cutting out the denominations and prayers read out of books and all that fancy stuff and it would be just the Bible.
Their idea of the “early church†was, of course, what their church was like. They were actually ignorant of the facts about the early church, which is understandable as they were Bible only Christians. Consequently they assumed that the early church was just a group of Christians meeting in someone’s home or a simple building to sing songs and have a Bible study.
One of the things they definitely did NOT have was any devotion to the Mother of God. That was a late, Catholic, man made abomination! That was a much later pagan interpolation into the simple Bible based religion!
Except it wasn’t. This blog post outlines the fascinating discovery of the manuscript of the oldest hymn to the Blessed Virgin.Their idea of the “early church†was, of course, what their church was like. They were actually ignorant of the facts about the early church, which is understandable as they were Bible only Christians. Consequently they assumed that the early church was just a group of Christians meeting in someone’s home or a simple building to sing songs and have a Bible study.
One of the things they definitely did NOT have was any devotion to the Mother of God. That was a late, Catholic, man made abomination! That was a much later pagan interpolation into the simple Bible based religion!
Except it wasn’t.
Thisoutlines the fascinating discovery of the manuscript of the oldest hymn to the Blessed Virgin.
The earliest text of this hymn was found in a Christmas liturgy of the third century. It is written in Greek and dates to approximately 250 A.D.In 1917, the John Rylands Library in Manchester acquired a large panel of Egyptian papyrus including the 18 cm by 9.4 cm fragment shown at left, containing the text of this prayer in Greek.
C.H. Roberts published this document in 1938. His colleague E. Lobel, with whom he collaborated in editing the Oxyrhynchus papyri, basing his arguments on paleographic analysis, argued that the text could not possibly be older than the third century, and most probably was written between 250 and 300. This hymn thus precedes the “Hail Mary†in Christian prayer by several centuries.
Here's the text:
On the papyrus:
.ΠΟ
ΕΥCΠΑ
ΚΑΤΑΦΕ
ΘΕΟΤΟΚΕΤ
ΙΚΕCΙΑCΜΗΠΑ
ΕΙΔΗCΕΜΠΕΡΙCTAC
AΛΛΕΚΚΙÎΔΥÎΟΥ
…ΡΥCΑΙΗΜΑC
MONH
…HEΥΛΟΓ
Here it is set to music:
Turns out the hymn to the Theotokos (the God Bearer) dates from 250 AD.
What is very interesting about these comparatively recent documentary and archeological discoveries is not only what we can gather from the scraps of text themselves, but how they become part of a much larger puzzle. We can piece things together to build up a better picture of the true facts.
The hymn is clearly a prayer to the Blessed Virgin asking for her intercession and assistance in time of trouble. This shows continuity with the belief of the church down through the ages. I’m thinking “Mary Help of Christians.â€
Therefore, if this hymn to the Virgin dates from 250 AD we can deduce that it must be a written record of an earlier practice. Think about it, by the time something is written down for use in the liturgy it must already have been in use for some time. Furthermore, if this prayer is part of a document that is a copy of another document, then this also indicates that the actual practice is earlier than the manuscript itself.
In addition to this, if the hymn-prayer is included in the liturgy, then it must be something which is approved by the church and in practice on a fairly widespread basis. If it is included in the liturgy, then the term “theotokos†was not simply a theological term or a theological concept, but something which was integrated into the worshipping and devotional life of the church from the earliest days.
That argument also goes the other way: if the term “theotokos†was used in a hymn-prayer venerating the Blessed Virgin, then a high view of her significance in the plan of redemption must also have been prevalent in the theology of the early church.
You want primitive Christianity? You want to worship like the “early church†then Marian devotion had better be part of it!
Yep....that’s an oops for sure.
The Messiah specifically wrote to those “churches.”
Rev 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
So tell me what is the purpose of this letter written to the “churches”? If it is not written to you then it is for those other people who haven’t reached perfection like you have?
“and those who keep (obey) what is written here.”
What is there to obey in Revelation? What was the constant message of the prophets? What was the constant message of John? What was the constant message of Jesus?
Here is your hint and he is still doing it in Revelation, AND HE AINT DONE YET................:
Mat 4:17 From then on Jesus began to preach, “Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near. “
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
Right you are, AF. My post should have referenced your post #456 wherein you altered the wording of post #451 without notation. My bad for assuming you would see the log ...
Ah, the slippery slope of false analogy, or is it comparative religion ?
If you pay close attention, and I will aid you by repeating my post #507 with boldness so that you may understand more clearly, #507 inquired in reference to using one's own words with quotation marks and falsely attributing them to another. #456 used my own words in a normal bold font to make them stand out as different. It used italic font for the phrase from which I borrowed, and to which I responded, and did not write that my creative thought was really another's. It was my thought on the matter so I did not falsely attribute it to another.
#456
You don't get the staggering point of that verse.....Jesus would deny anyone who does not continue to do the will of the Father!
#507
Is mocking Catholics by attributing your own words to them in false quotes walking in the Spirit or walking after the flesh ?
In summary, I can recognize an error in someone's post and creatively correct it, presenting it as my words, my thought, without quotation and false attribution, completely owning my post as my own.
To quote someone with words they did not use is false testimony. Do you consider that walking in the Spirit or walking after the flesh ?
What have you falsely attributed to God ?
LOL. And there’s the problem.
False
It is my understanding the whole Bible is a letter written to me. This may be the crux of the matter.
Possibly, or a symptom; do you reject the Catholic/Orthodox Bible according to its entirety ? Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.
Exodus, Catholic chapter thirty one, Protestant verse fourteen,
Ezekiel, Catholic chapter thirty three, Protestant verse seventeen to twenty one,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
Is it a relic, a piece of history, or a personal letter to you?
It is my living inheritance.
What have you falsely attributed to God ?
It is largely meaningless anyway, as you simply cannot compare what essentially is one denomination with multitudes of them, which definition is so broad you could fly a Unitarian Scientology Swedenborgian 747 thru it,
To be meaningful, you would have to compare one denomination that requires its ministers and people to assent to at least essential core Reformation beliefs, with Rome.
Or you could compare unity under the distinctive fundamental bases for ascertaining Truth btwn two systems. In this case btwn holding the truth of Scripture to be the supreme standard on faith and morals as being wholly inspired and accurate word of God, with its literal historical accounts and transcendent basic moral laws, and thus the veracity of preaching must rest upon the weight of Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, as this is how the church began.
Which is in contrast with what the One True Church® says thru its magisterium being the that supreme standard.
And with unity understood as being in basics, and not being simply defined by paper assent, but by what it does and effect s.
Run that up the flag pole.
Then Rome shudda put this in the Book to begin with; instead of trying to slip it in later.
Ever read the first 3 chapters of John's Revelation?
Every one of those doomed churches were Catholic.
How do you explain that?
Before, the Bible, there was the one Catholic Church. It was the Catholic Church that through Divine inspiration assembled and collated the writings of scripture double checking with the sacred oral tradition. The books in the Bible did not fall from the skies and self assemble themselves.
The rest of Christianity is all pure rot with thousands of variations often contradicting themselves. The command to “Go forth and teach,” is to teach ONE truth, not instruct heretical rot. The Himalayan intellectual tradition of the Church has no parallel.
Are you MORMON?
I belong to the Church of the Apostles as founded by Christ.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Catholicism
Oh yeah!
You guys are responsible for those seven famous CATHOLIC churches in Asia that John spoke about!!
You keep ignoring a fact evident to any kindergartner. The divine authority to assemble and interpret the word of Gad was given to ONE Church. Not to every Tom, Dick, and Harry and your local corner street pastor or to Billy Graham. The Church existed before the Bible. That authority did not vanish with the demoniacal Reformation or by the edicts of Henry VII. Grow up and ask yourself why so many esteemed evangelicals have jettisoned their beliefs and joined the Catholic Church after a lifetime of study, reflection, and even teaching. Go figure.
Yeah; John pointed how well THAT worked out; didn't he!!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.