Posted on 08/21/2015 7:07:55 AM PDT by Salvation
There is a common Protestant claim that there is one (sole) mediator between God and Man—Jesus. Therefore, they say, asking the saints to pray for us is useless, wrong, and maybe even sinful. Those who object, usually cite some of the following texts:
To this claim, we should first answer that we do not teach a substitutional mediation in invoking the saints, as if we were trying to go to the Father apart from Jesus’ mediation.
Rather, we speak of a subordinate mediation, in which we seek the prayers of the saints, or of one another. For indeed we could have no communion with them or one another if it were not for Jesus Christ, who as the Head of the Body, the Church, unites all His members and facilitates our communion with one another.
Objectors seem to speak of there being one mediator in an absolute sense, excluding any other possible interaction or any subordinate mediation. But consider that if there is only one mediator in an absolute sense, then no one ought to ask ANYONE to pray for him; and neither should the objectors attend any church, read any book, listen to any sermon, or even read the Bible (since the Bible mediates Jesus’ words to you).
A “mediator” is someone or something that acts as a “go-between,” acting to facilitate our relationship with Jesus. And though Jesus mediates our relationship to the Father, He also asked Apostles, preachers, and teachers to mediate, to facilitate His relationship with us.
Thus Jesus sent Apostles out to draw others to him. St. Paul says, How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ (Rom 10:14-15, 17).
And thus Jesus has His relationship with us mediated through His Word and through the Apostles and others who announce that Word and draw us to Him.
But since some Protestants say that there is absolutely only ONE mediator, and no subordinate or deputed mediators, there is therefore no need to ask ANYONE or ANYTHING to mediate. So should they not burn their Bibles, stop asking anyone to pray for them, and seek no advice, since NO ONE can mediate a single thing? No one can do this because there is, as they say in an absolutely unqualified sense, only ONE mediator—one and only one.
But for those of us who see that there is a subordinated mediation in service of Christ’s supreme mediation, the prayers of others, preaching, and teaching all make sense. And just as the Bible can mediate His presence and will, or as a preacher can mediate His word, so too can the prayers of others (including the Saints) convey my prayers to Him. And Jesus can mediate my prayers to the Father and give graces to me by mediating them through others.
Consider the analogy of the body, since the Church is Christ’s Body. Jesus has one Body and all the parts are connected through the Head, who is Jesus. Now consider your own body. All the members of your body have communion and unity through your head, your mind. There are different ways to have interaction with others. Perhaps someone will reach you through your ears by speaking, or through the sense of touch by tapping you on the shoulder, or visually by waving. Various members of your body facilitate (mediate) interaction with others in different ways, but it is all facilitated through the head of your body, your mind. So, too, do I confidently expect to reach Jesus in different ways: directly, or through one of His members (realizing that He Himself facilitates it).
And thus for us Catholics, our relationship with Jesus is a rich tapestry of relationships with all the members of His body, those who are with us here and now as well as those who have gone on before us but remain members of the one Body, the Church, with Christ our Head.
Yet you people tell us that you will be judged at the end of the world at the Great White Throne Judgment...So how does that work out with the 2 judgments???
In fact, you tell us that at some point in time you are again judged to have met the requirements to get out of purgatory...And then I guess you live in heaven with or as the Saints til you get to the last judgment...That's 3 judgments...
Every thing is literal until the non-Catholics tell us otherwise.
Nice sentiment, but severely out of context. For man it is impossible to see as God does. We are chained to this tabernacle and are confined by its physics. God stands outside of our reality, weaving His love through its fabric, leaving traces for us to wonder at without one method by which we can interfere with but by every opportunity to adore.
Is that what your pigeons tell you?
“IMHO.”
I don’t think you have any.
“Your assertion makes room for lots of ‘stuff’ from the magicsteeringthem”
Christ didn’t establish a Church without authority.
1Timothy 2:
[1] I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
[2] For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
[3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
[4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
[6] Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
We know that what is in scripture comes from God...We also know that your religion was based almost entirely on man's failed wisdom, Philosophy...
God tells us to avoid Philosophy...
There is no verse.
Correct...There is not a single verse...There are tons of them, when put together one can not make the mistake of believing there is any Truth of God outside of the scriptures...
Basically, under the Catholic criticism proscription, this thread is useless.
“Nice sentiment, but severely out of context.”
I expressed no sentiment. We are new creatures. We see things differently now. If you don’t, then you have a problem.
“For man it is impossible to see as God does.”
No. It is impossible for man to see PERFECTLY as God does, but we do see what is as God has it just not perfectly (1 Corinthians 13:12).
“We are chained to this tabernacle and are confined by its physics.”
Only in some ways. Through the power of God - who you seem to completely discount - we are not just chained to the earth. 2 Corinthians 12:2
“God stands outside of our reality, weaving His love through its fabric, leaving traces for us to wonder at without one method by which we can interfere with but by every opportunity to adore.”
Actually God EXISTS outside of our reality, but He chooses to stand with us and dwells inside us. Matthew 28:20, 2 Corinthians 13:5, Galatians 2:20.
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>> “Christ didn’t establish a Church without authority.” <<
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He didn’t establish any “church” at all!
He “built” (expanded) his already existing assembly of believers that had been born 4000 years before.
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The Bible clearly condemns necromancy. Argument over
Take that verse out of context (because in that same chapter, Paul tells his hearers to pray for others -- that's mediation, BTW) and ignoring the Greek (which says "heis" [one, unique, primary], not "monos" [one and only one, exactly one]), is definitely wrong.
Correct, my bad. My Greek isn't very good.
5.56mm
Maybe the Religion Forum needs a “Fistfight” caucus. :-)
As I have stated several times......our bodies die when we die. Our soul is alive.
It first undergoes the particular judgment at the moment of our death.
It will also take part in the General Judgment at the end of time.
“We know that what is in scripture comes from God...”
Post a verse that says Matthew’s Gospel is inspired. You can claim that it is, but there is no verse that says it. Sola scriptura simply doesn’t work.
“We also know that your religion was based almost entirely on man’s failed wisdom, Philosophy...”
Actually, no one knows that because it isn’t true. I’m sure there are some people who are stupid enough to believe that.
“God tells us to avoid Philosophy...”
Actually, St. Paul says we should avoid vain philosophy. The pursuit of wisdom is not condemned: http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/colossians/colossians-2-8.html
“Correct...There is not a single verse...There are tons of them, when put together one can not make the mistake of believing there is any Truth of God outside of the scriptures...”
No, there are zero verses that prove the false Protestant claims. Not even one.
"If the Bible doesn’t mean what it says, why doesn’t it say what it means?"
Oh, like Christ saying, This is my body, meaning exactly what it says ?
Three fourths of Protestantism is based on either reinterpreting Scripture in a way it means something not clearly stated or just throwing out Scripture that didn't agree with Martin Luther's heresy.
Actually, it is Jesus Himself who both prays and mediates. He does it all. We who are united with Him, are partakers in His whole salvific mission.
It's a question of distinguishing one thing from another. Primary mediation would mean, as you said, that "you alone settle the outcome of the position of God and the position of the person you are mediating for..."
This is not what we're talking about. Jesus is the One mediator in this sense, as the Bible so very clearly states.
What we're talking about here is subordinate mediation, the sense in which the whole Body of Christ participates in His work. We who are joined to Him are united to His life, death, and resurrection, and therefore united to His work in drawing all souls to the Father through Himself.
Otherwise, the fact that we are members of His Body (1 Cor. 12:12-31) and participate in His divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) would be rendered empty of content. It would be inconsequential.
But our identification with Christ (in His Body, participating in His divine nature) has, rather, a huge and precious significance and consequence. It means that by His power alone, we participate in His saving work. It means we can say, with Paul, "I live --- yet not I, but Christ lives in me." Because indeed as Christ says, "Without Me, you can do nothing."
Tagline.
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