Posted on 08/09/2015 11:06:27 AM PDT by Old Yeller
The Bible never speaks of a place where one can go to be purified of his sin. Rather, it always speaks of a Person to whom we can go to be purified: Jesus Christ. God tells us that those who refuse to trust Christ to cleanse them from their sins are condemned: Whoever believes in Him avoids condemnation, but whoever does not believe is already condemned for not believing in the name of God's only Son (John 3:18). There are only two choices: Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God (John 3:36; See also Revelation 20:15; Luke 16:19-31, especially verse 26). Anyone who accepts Christ is completely saved: There is no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Saying that there is no condemnation, certainly eliminates the flames of purgatory.
Another passage which clearly excludes the idea of purgatory is, their sins and transgressions I will remember no more (Hebrews 10:17). If, as the Bible says, God no longer remembers the sins of those who are in Christ, He does not punish them for these sins. To do so would be saying that Christ had not made full payment for them and that God the Father still remembered them. (See also Romans 5:8-11; Hebrews 10:14-18; Psalm 103:12).
Anyone who does not believe that Christ has completely saved him, has not completely trusted Christ to save him. That is, he does not believe that Christ's sacrifice has paid for all of his sins, and thinks he must pay for some of them himself. However, we are saved when we stop trusting what we can do, and start trusting Christ to save us.
The idea that Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient to cleanse us from all of our sins would condemn a great sinner such as the thief who was crucified with Jesus to suffer a long time in purgatory if not for all eternity in hell! Instead, there was nothing left over that Christ's death on the Cross did not cover. When the thief placed his trust in Christ, Jesus said to him, I assure you: this day you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).
If purgatory existed, and the mass helped people to get out, the rich would have a tremendous advantage by being able to pay for masses to shorten their suffering. The poor instead, would be left to the mercy of the occasional priest who might say an unpaid mass for them. One ex-priest wrote, "If we really believed that the mass would save people from the flames of purgatory, would we make them pay for it? I would even save a dog if I saw one in a fire, and I would never even think of asking to be paid!"
Purgatory was evidently a pagan idea. Virgil, the pagan Latin poet who lived 70 - 19 B.C. divided the departed souls into three different places in his writings: One for the good, one for the damned, and a third where the less bad could pay for their sins. Since the idea of purgatory existed outside of the church before it came into the church, it is probable that it was brought in by contact with pagans like Virgil. There was a great influx of non-Biblical ideas into the church around 300 A.D. when the Roman Emperor Constantine took many unsaved people in as members of the church.
In any event, there is no mention of purgatory in the Bible. Some would try, however, to make the idea sound somewhat Biblical by referring to 2 Maccabees 12:41-45, a passage in one of the apocryphal books written between the times of the Old and New Testaments. These books were never accepted as part of the Hebrew Old Testament, nor quoted in the New Testament, but they are included in the Catholic Bible, though usually with an explanation that they are of a less inspired category. Apart from this passage in 2 Maccabees, the apocrypha is little used by the Catholic church to support a doctrinal position.
It is important to notice that this passage does not speak of purgatory at all, but actually condemns idolatry, particularly the practice of wearing little images on a necklace or such. Hebrew soldiers were found wearing this sort of thing after a battle, and their buddies, on making this discovery, realized that they had died in the sin of idolatry. They then counseled prayer for their souls. The Roman Catholic position is that prayer for them would have been unnecessary if they were in heaven and useless if they were in hell, so there must be another place. The logic seems good, but the result contradicts the clear teaching of the inspired Scripture. Contradicting inspired Scripture with a philosophical response based on an apparent inference from the Apocrypha is a very weak argument indeed. The very word "Apocrypha," which comes from the Greek word for hidden, has come to mean "false," or "of doubtful authorship."
Your premise is utterly flawed. 1 Pet 2:5; Phil 4:15-18.
If you understood what was being taught in such places as I Cor 12 and Eph 4:16-18, you would perhaps grasp what is really going on here. But it’s apparent that you don’t.
And we won’t even begin to try to explain the eternal sacrifice of the Mass, as vividly shown in Apoc 5, 6.
So please accept my sincere apologies for interjecting myself into your anti-Catholic rant. Have fun with it.
Ephesians 2 cannot be any clearer for a Believer.
Ephesians 2:1 (AMP)
1 AND YOU [He made alive], when you were dead (slain) by [your] trespasses and sins
>>>>You WERE spiritually dead. Now you are alive.
Ephesians 2:4-5 (AMP)
4 But God—so rich is He in His mercy! Because of and in order to satisfy the great and wonderful and intense love with which He loved us,
5 Even when we were dead (slain) by [our own] shortcomings and trespasses, He made us alive together in fellowship and in union with Christ; [He gave us the very life of Christ Himself, the same new life with which He quickened Him, for] it is by grace (His favor and mercy which you did not deserve) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation).
>>>>Its all about LOVE Himself. Even when you WERE spiritually dead, Jesus gave you LIFE!
Ephesians 2:6 (AMP)
6 And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
>>>>Why are you waiting for death? This new LIFE is available NOW.
Ephesians 2:7-9 (AMP)
7 He did this that He might clearly demonstrate through the ages to come the immeasurable (limitless, surpassing) riches of His free grace (His unmerited favor) in [His] kindness and goodness of heart toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;
9 Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law’s demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]
>>>There is NOTHING you can do to earn it. Its all by Grace. Only pride and religious bondage keeps you from enjoying God’s Love.
>>>>You are either spiritually dead, or spiritually alive. There is no in between state because spirits are eternal. If you are a Believer, spiritually alive, you are with Christ, whether in the body, or out of the body.
Ephesians 2:19 (AMP)
19 Therefore you are no longer outsiders (exiles, migrants, and aliens, excluded from the rights of citizens), but you now share citizenship with the saints (God’s own people, consecrated and set apart for Himself); and you belong to God’s [own] household.
>>>>Do you belong to God, or some religion?
>>>>Its time to set aside these religious ideas and let the Word speak for itself. His Truth will set you free! Its so sad how religion leads people away from the simplicity of God’s Truth.
Colossians 2:8-10 (AMP)
8 See to it that no one carries you off as spoil or makes you yourselves captive by his so-called philosophy and intellectualism and vain deceit (idle fancies and plain nonsense), following human tradition (men’s ideas of the material rather than the spiritual world), just crude notions following the rudimentary and elemental teachings of the universe and disregarding [the teachings of] Christ (the Messiah).
9 For in Him the whole fullness of Deity (the Godhead) continues to dwell in bodily form [giving complete expression of the divine nature].
10 And you are in Him, made full and having come to fullness of life [in Christ you too are filled with the Godhead—Father, Son and Holy Spirit—and reach full spiritual stature]. And He is the Head of all rule and authority [of every angelic principality and power].
>>>>If Jesus is your Lord, you are COMPLETE in Christ. Feed on the Word and let the Truth free set you from religious ignorance.
hi Verga,
You wrote, “And what about those of us that have studied the matter thoroughly and it was the evidence of the Catholic Church that brought us back into Her.”
“Thoroughly” is an opinion. Many have studied Catholic teaching and concluded the opposite - including Priest and nuns and others.
“I studied the doctrines and the evidence was strongest for the Catholic Church. There were too many contradictions with Protestantism. “
“Strongest” is an opinion. Others have studied the doctrines and believe the evidence was particularly weak for the Catholic Church. They came to the opposite conclusion you did.
Best.
We’re talking about Purgatory here, right?
Here is an interesting testimony about purgatory.
http://bswett.com/1995-11GoodCatholicGhosts.html
but when I die, I could be burning like crazy in purgatory for thousands of years, because no one is praying for me..
You are essentially saying Christ is not sufficient. That is blasphemy.
All that and not one bit of Scripture to support it.
Why should we take your opinion about it when we have what the Creator of the universe told us?
And He didn’t mention a thing about a place called *purgatory*.
I know neither does Protestantism.
Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.
*Purgatory* can’t do it because suffering is not how our sins are dealt with.
It’s the wrong method for dealing with sin, and we can’t pay for our sins ourselves.
If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
His “works,” not his soul.
Man’s WORKS are tested by fire to determine their quality.
It doesn’t say the PERSON is purged of sin.
When a person is forgiven, they are already judged as far as their salvation is concerned. Their sin is dealt with. There’s no sin left to judge them on.
If one only had the NT to go by you would not see purgatory in the NT.
You are relying upon a book from the apocrypha which was not recognized as canon by the early church. Jerome did not consider them as canon but was compelled to include them. Ironic that the Vulgate is the official version of the Bible for the RCC
There are many known errors in the apocrypha that contradict the written Word. Hence, one of the reasons it was not included by the early church in the canon.
You know I have the highest regard for you. But you are the one asserting that Purgatory is judgement. You are the one who is stating that Purgatory is where a person is purged of sin.
Not the Church. Nor myself.
And yet I'm the one you quote these passages to.
And please, don't attempt to explain the sacrifice of the Mass.
Christ has been sacrificed one time for our sins and need not be again. Let's not continue to sacrifice Him again and again and again.......
Did you forget some of your history?
The Guttenberg Bible was the Vulgate. Look it up!
“Did you forget some of your history?
No.
“The Guttenberg Bible was the Vulgate. Look it up!”
And still, I do not understand the point you are trying to make in posting to me Salvation.
Best.
Please...not this one again.
Man’s WORKS are tested by fire to determine their quality.
Some works are like wood or straw and will not survive the test. The work of others will survive because they are worthy.
Think about how some do very public and obvious works. They might be good things but they are done for esteem. Others might do things that “look” good but are really selfish acts with a thin veneer of “righteousness.”
Works done solely for the love of the Lord will survive the test.
My bible, Catholic of course, says Heaven and Earth.....what is Heavens??, there's only one unless you're a Morman...then you get your own..
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